No.5541
>>5539I'm exhausted and forgot to mention that art like that image kindof annoys me as well. It's drawn just fine the artist is talented, but who looks at a featureless character and is able to project themselves onto it?
No.5542
>>5538This isn't full on self-inserting but it annoys me when a shipper clearly lusts for one character and just uses the other as a "vessel" to act out what they want. It's pretty common and obvious when their favorite character is the bottom, they'll always tweet about wanting to fuck him, etc. and then basically reduce the top to a personalityless dildo. They clearly don't like the ship because they find the relationship/dynamic interesting, they're just there for one character so why are these type of fans even here.
And this might sound nonsensical but while they tweet about wanting to do XYZ to the bottom, even if it sounds like they're posting from the top's perspective, it really just sounds like wish fulfillment in the sense that they're projecting what they want onto bottom (because lbr most fujos are straight women and write from that perspective). It's like they're self-inserting into the top and bottom simultaneously. But regardless these types of shippers annoy me because I don't understand why you'd want anything to do with the characters personally. They tend to be the type to write the characters OOC too because they only give a shit about half of the pairing.
No.5543
>>5542I agree heavily, it makes me wonder why they cant just make an OMC or Mob character to do the work rather than mischaracterize a pre-existing character as a stand in for the supposed "ship".
I can take a couple joking quips of what the person would want to do with the bottom, but when you start reflecting these desires onto random characters, regardless if it would be in character or not, it starts getting into weird self insert territory
No.5546
>>5538I've never really 'gotten' self-inserting. One thing that initially attracted me to BL was how defined the protagonists were compared to some other genres. Ultimately, I'm here to see two characters interact, so I don't factor into the equation at all. It's actually led to me not connecting to some pieces of media where the protagonist felt too bland or too much like a vessel for the reader.
This might be hyper-specific, but it's also extremely annoying when fic writers try to change one of the characters to make that character more like themself. I've seen fics where the author just randomly adds some sort of disability to a character who did not have it in canon (like ADHD or autism or something), and it's always painfully obvious that it's a condition the author also has. Same for when the author decides to give a character a random hobby or interest that doesn't fit with the character's canonical portrayal, or some sort of insecurity that the writer invented for the character. Completely takes me out of the story.
>>5542Agreed. What's really frustrating is trying to talk about my ships with people like this. I get that everyone can like what they like, but I feel like I have nothing in common with people who do this. Like, the whole reason we're consuming the media is at complete odds. It's almost like they're treating one of the characters like a tool or device rather than another character to contribute to the dynamic.
No.5548
>>5539>Another interesting compotent of self-insert fandom is chatbots. I have a coworker who spends hours "texting" Bakugou from BnHA on Character AI, she's almost a decade younger then me so I figured it must just be a younger person thing, but so I started seeing it pop up in communities I use.I suspect the rise in character chatbots has to do with people wanting to scratch the same itch as roleplaying does but without the risk of your RP partner turning out to be a creep. Especially for younger people in fandom RPing can be dangerous cause of all the groomers out there.
>>5546>I've never really 'gotten' self-inserting. One thing that initially attracted me to BL was how defined the protagonists were compared to some other genres.Agreed. While I'm primarily a fujoshi I've sometimes consumed otome media over the years but it's always a turnoff when someone will post a steam link to a VN that has handsome men in it but then the steam page will mention that the protagonist is just customisable pronouns instead of their own character. Any romance in there is just going to be the blandest thing possible because the writers have to make it neutral enough to appeal to any player.
No.5549
>>5538I am not sure if I ever self-inserted. I can relate to some characters a lot and see myself in them, but I don't feel the need to change their past to make it identical to mine, add dumb shit like them being NEETs like me when they aren't (kinners do that) or give them a vagina. I don't need any of that to relate.
Think the closest I ever got to identify with a character was with Shinji from NGE and Tsukasa from .hack, but I wasn't sexually attracted to them so I didn't ship either.
The main issue with self-inserting is that it makes every post about a character others make incredibly personal. You don't ship a character anymore, you ship "them". Self-inserters cannot act rational because they think they ARE the character and they usually happen to be super sensitive, emotionally labile people so they overract and want a story to turn to shit to fulfill their retarded desires.
Like when an otaku wants the male characters to disappear and the MC to fuck every girl. God awful story, but he doesn't care because he believes it was all about him and his retarded urgges.
No.5556
What I hate is how self-inserters try to twist what they're doing into "it's just empathy", thats not what empathy is. Empathy is being able to understand a character without bringing yourself into it. Rewriting a characters past and personality in your brain to make it easier for yourself to understand is the opposite of being empathetic. Projection is not empathy.
No.5573
>>5556Self-inserting is the least empathetic thing you can ever do. I will die by that statement. Imagine not feeling for the character because it's not you. That's sociopathic behavior
No.5580
>>5556One of the big issues with self-inserters (that wasn't mentioned yet) is the irrational hatred towards antagonists and the annoying lack of interest in canon, worldbuilding and other characters too since self-inserters are obsessed with their alter-ego getting everything he wants.
And yes they try to justify everything rationally. Like explaining why every antagonist deserves shit, even if the precious self-insert character isn't better than them, why their pairings are right and all others wrong (so they become antis) and lots of other shit. And don't even get me started with the self-projection when they headcanon that the self-insert shares all of their viewpoints, even political ones, and fight to defend this shit.
No.5581
>>5538I don't know if I'm being schizo or if there is a legit erosion of the idea of making a character that isn't you.
I was watching some kid shows with a relative and each time there was an episode about some sort of creativity, it was centered around the protagonist.
Learning to paint, they paint themselves. Learning to write, they write a comic of themselves wearing a cape with superpowers. Constantly there was this vibe of "I'm having fun being creative because I get to write about ME!". If they meet some historical figure, it's always "wow they're just like me".
Stuff like "there isn't a superhero that looks like me, so I'll make one that does!" Now, I know as a kid some shows would do this, but I don't remember it being this bad.
No.5582
>>5557>I guess people consume media for different reasonsThis is the central problem with every issue involving media.
There are people that consume it as background noise, so it has to be easy to understand even to someone who doesn't pay attention. Others only use it as shit to calm their urges and fantasies, so they only care about a story involving MC getting the girl or being the super dude or super special princess like in isekai stuff.
Others again want an engaging story or are there for the character dynamics. Fujos usually fall into the latter two categories, often at the same time. But because of this they are inherently incompatible to self-inserters (m or f), waifu fags, switch-brain-off fags and other subtypes of audiences.
A HUGE issue with anime is that westerners don't take it seriously because it's drawn. This INCLUDES otaku. Because of this the audiences that care about story or characters are small and usually stick to live action. This is the bane of fujo and why you either share the fandom with spergs or feel lonely and are one of the five only damn westerners loving it while 99% of the rest of the fanbase are Asians that are more likely to anime seriously.
No.5583
>>5581It's not your imagination, I call it the "validation" trend and it started around the mid 10s. You also notice it for anime. Look at all the female and male otaku MCs we get. Isekai MCs. Otome fanatics and fujos in anime or the MCs of office romances. Every MC has to be the "literally me" character these days.
In the past the standard hero was someone cool like Kenshiro or He-Man, now it's otaku or insecure chosen ones for anime and overweighted kids, boys with anxiety attacks, ADHD lesbians and other stuff. Those are attempts of representing the audience, this is also where "woke" trends comes from. It has rarely genuine, it's usually just a brown US American to represent the US audience.
The plots are the same. Most cartoons I watched the last years were about validation. Every conflict was about an insecurity and ending with everybody telling MC that they are "valid" the way they are, shouldn't change. Classic stories had the opposite moral and the MC was supposed to change and grow. They expected the audience to relate regardless and we did! To me it was inspiring to see a MC improving and getting strong. Now they believe it would make them feel bad about themselves.
No.5590
>>5546>I've never really 'gotten' self-inserting. One thing that initially attracted me to BL was how defined the protagonists were compared to some other genres.I'm the same. I remember being baffled at the amount of yumes on Lolcow and those horny YA readers on booktok who unironically said they can't enjoy romance that doesn't allow self inserting because I've always found shit like that so cringe and awkward, I'd much rather read about a defined couple and their relationship as it is. A lot of straight media is based on self insertion to a degree which is probably why I was never into romance as a genre before getting into BL. And even in BL I can't get into the ship at all if the other character is too bland or obviously meant for (you) purposes, but that seems much less common than it is in most straight romances.
>>5580>One of the big issues with self-inserters (that wasn't mentioned yet) is the irrational hatred towards antagonists and the annoying lack of interest in canon, worldbuilding and other characters too since self-inserters are obsessed with their alter-ego getting everything he wants.Oh, absolutely. This is possibly my biggest gripe with them because they seem to actually hate the canon source, but obsess over this one character which is why they stick around and spit venom at anyone who actually enjoys the canon and the conflict written in it.
>>5583I would bet that this trend was started by producers who said that people will consume their product if they can relate to the characters, and the easiest way to do so is to just make every main character a self insert because you don't have to mind their writing since leaving them just vague enough people will fill in the gaps themselves.
No.5591
>>5581It's true. Speaking from american perspective, but the dogma around writing has become "write what you know". This is the advice given to anyone who goes into writing. The Express of the self is put on a pedestal as the very meaning of art itself. We also have retards who think it's morally wrong to write about a character of a different race/gender/sexuality etc. Using art to explore that which exists outside of you has been thrown to the wind.
No.5592
>>5591It doesn't help that online criticism is amplified to be louder than it has ever been. Unless you put hundreds of hours into research to get everything as right as you can in your story, people will lambast it to list all the things you got wrong and hold you accountable for it. So people just end up creating inoffensive slop about mundane things that flies under the radar just enough to make everyone leave you alone, and storytelling to explore something inaccessible to you in real life exists no more.
No.5593
>>5542This is my greatest gripe with self inserting that isn't blatant (literally me) x character.
You can just tell when someone is basically a honorary yumejo if they only care about one character specifically and the relationships they supposedly ship are just glorified "I just want X to be fucked".
The west does a lot of cuntboytisms but jp does the whole one-side genderbends too when one of the characters (usually the bottom) is just straight up a girl.
At that point you are just insert yourself being loved by the character you love the most.
No.5594
>>5580Yes!! Related to this, there's the weird aversion to anything bad happening to the characters. When you get THAT invested into seeing a character as 'you,' anything bad that happens starts to feel like a personal attack, and anything the villain does feels like it's hurting you personally.
No.5595
>>5592That's true that some people are pressured out of writing compelling stories due to insane standards, but some of write that way because it's literally what their concept of a story is. I think the worst part was finding out that most people in fact do prefer using fiction for self-indulgence and ego-stroking rather than exploration and connection. Like they look at all the rich stories and intelligent authors in the world and consciously pick slop over that. I didn't know my faith in humanity could be killed even further.
No.5597
>>5542I LOVE fanfics written in the first person from the PoV of the top/the more active part of a relationship, which is the opposite of this so I relate.
I can sometimes enjoy some degenerated mob/character porn too but I hate it when the partner gets his personality erased to be a living dick. Where is even the fun?
It's even more cryptic when they love the bottom or would love to fuck him. Especially then you should be able to relate to the top and come with good ideas of how to write him. How does he try to get the other's attention or enjoy the time together? What does he thinks the other is thinking? How horny is he and so on but combine all that with his canon personality to make it fun and explore his personality. You get the intimacy with the bottom anyway so why not exploring both of them? It's so stupid and especially bad when the top is a great character on his own.
No.5602
>>5597>Especially then you should be able to relate to the top and come with good ideas of how to write himThis is why I think they're also paradoxically self-inserting into the bottom at the same time. They themselves probably just want a blank slate of a person to simply service and attend to their needs, that's why the top never has any personality beyond being there to fuck. In a better world these people would just stick to mob pairings but you don't get much community or clout from that. I've also noticed a pattern of how many of these types are "all(bottom)" shippers aka they ship the uke with anyone. Really just shows how interchangable the top is for them. None of them "like" the pairings because the relationship is interesting, it's more like dolls they can swap out when they wanna see the uke get fucked in different ways.
No.5605
I think people fundamentally misunderstand what self insertion even means and invent some superhuman mental ability that doesn't exist for the sole purpose of shitting on other fans with different tastes. I don't mean that as in fujos, but that it's a problem across the whole of anime fandom. Guys constantly fight over which titty anime is superior and start accusing their opponents of "self inserting", and will try to erase all the personality traits and developments of a male protagonist just to say "you guys like worse media than me, an intellectual". I'm enjoying this character and want to see him with other characters, and then eight people will scream at me "STOP LIKING HIM HE HAS NO TRAITS HE'S A SELF INSERT." Maybe because you have difficulty caring for male characters as a straight man and refuse to read into the behavior and commentary given to us? Geez.
>>5541>who looks at a featureless character and is able to project themselves onto it?You're not meant to? It's not for you. If you think this mob character by an artist who draws nothing but gay porn is meant to be literally you then you're being weird.
The rest of what you talked about is all shit though. I can't stand people thinking entire AI chatlogs are "funny memes" to spam on social media when the humor is just AI not managing to sound like the character in the slightest. I genuinely have never read nor met someone who has read one of those xReader fics with the placeholders, only seen people parody them for shitposts, but I assume they're children who haven't developed standards yet. They're just excited for all eight sentences of content so they can go "omg real omg i like same thing so bad i will die (sobbing emoji) (skull emoji)".
>>5542People like this are why I'm constantly giving disclaimers that one character is my main focus that I'm biased towards, even though I'm careful to try and say a sentence on the other character for every one sentence about my favorite in the ship. I can't help my preferences but I can at least try to respect the other characters and discuss their unique dynamics with him. The way he interacts with other people is still a part of him and you lose something if you remove from it.
The more I read this thread the more I think I really don't have any experience with self inserters in fandom. This is some insane alien logic.
No.5638
>>5605>The more I read this thread the more I think I really don't have any experience with self inserters in fandomConsider yourself lucky unless you're the unaware self-inserter posting here kek
I kid. Don't shoot me No.5649
>>5605I think actual self-inserters are what people call kinners nowadays. They are very different from your typical otaku let alone fujos.
Self-inserting is different from being viewing the top/MC as blank state who only exists to fuck a character. This is how men usually watch media I think. They rarely self-insert, it's more about the MC being a tool that they want to see marrying the girl. They don't care about the dude, they want to see the girl becoming a waifu similar to how "solo"-fujos just want the character to get fucked.
Both is okay I think. The actual self-inserting is KINNING and you usually find these people on tumblr and instagram and they are often the most annoying fans you will ever meet.
No.5654
>>5605>The more I read this thread the more I think I really don't have any experience with self inserters in fandom.It may just be the type of fandom you're in. You also may have a more discerning eye when it comes to fanfiction lol. It's deeply irritating to see fic writers turn a developed character into an in-universe version of themselves, but I'm sure it's less common in fandoms that skew older or have more mature members.
No.5658
>>5654I will never forget that self-inserting Mass Effect crazy that pretended to be Sparatus (some turian ambassador of the galatic council or whatever they fuck they were called) and got her mind broken when part 2 had a scene where rumor claimed that this character had cheated on his wife.
It wasn't even relevant, it was just some funny gossip. But that person (a TIF) was so obsessed with that alien dude that she wrote novel-length fics of his farm house and uncle from the military that were just literal autobiographic details of her own life. The game character didn't have an uncle or anything and was certainly not from a farm of whatever US state that person was from obsessed over (I can't even name more than four states, take that America).
I talked to her at first since we both liked aliens but it was cringe witnessing all of that. She even forced a matriarch grandma in that was a clone of her own one and turned the game wife (that was never shown) into a tradwife and the guy into a tard that loves her unconditionally so the reveal broke her. Instead of ignoring it she turned into a broken record making the same posts stating that canon isn't canon over and over again lmao
THIS is what a self-inserter is. Her character bore no resemblances to the canon guy anymore, she literally turned him into herself including her environment (even the fucking dog)
No.5685
>>5649Self-inserting isn't synonymous with kinning, kinning is a step further into insanity from just self-insertion. Self-inserting is projecting yourself into a character and using them as a vessel for you to experience the story personally, not thinking that you're actually this character.
No.5693
Is it me or are there more yumes on twitter who are very loud about how much they hate yaoi and who keep inserting their fantasies of themselves/male character into every conversation?
No.5696
>>5685NTA but I think anon was referring to the modern use of the word kinning, not the kind that I (and presumably you) grew up hearing, which was more of the "I am Literally Nagito Komaeda- doubles DNI." Nowadays, people use it more to describe a character they project onto/relate to.
No.5728
>>5693Yeah, it's really fucking bad. They think everyone needs to know about their self-insert ship and they often invade fujo spaces too and then will act like they're oppressed when no one gives a shit rightfully. I wish they could at least shut up.
No.5730
>>5693>>5728Probably correlated to the rise of 'ironic' homophobic jokes taking over so more of these types feel safe to talk shit about BL. Probably linked to Wattpad banning porn, leading to readerfic growing on Ao3, and those Wattpad selfinsert kiddies growing old enough to post their shitty takes as well.
Or maybe I just didn't see all the homophobic yumes out in the open back then. I remember there being self-insert material in my fandom back in the early 10s but you had to go looking for it and it was on Tumblr so it was easy to stay in your bubble.
No.5732
>>5728It has to be due to a sense of possessiveness, right?? As in, yumes can't stand the idea of anyone else being with their husbando? At least, that's what I've always assumed. I don't think there should be as much bad blood between us as there is, honestly. Yeah, we have different preferences, but at the end of the day, we fujos are less of a threat and an annoyance than the men who encroach on their media and spaces and start coomer-ifying things that were supposed to be made for them. We're also not like the men who demean and mock their media and hobbies for being "stupid" or "lame." If I were a yume, I'd be a lot more pissed at those people.
No.5733
>>5732its so strange how women otaku will infight rather than argue with weeb scrotes…i dont buy the female rivalry thing and i like to think its because we all already know men are stupid so arguing with them isnt productive or even fun lol
No.5734
>>5732I mean, the feeling I get as a fujo of getting annoyed at yumesperging about how much husbando loves bobs and vagene because I OTP him hard with another dude is pretty much the same at its core as the yume gets seeing fujos talk about husbando loving someone who isn't her or a selfinsert proxy, so I won't be a hypocrite, but if I were a yume I would understand that shipping some anime dude with myself or my OC is something personal to me that only I give a shit about and I wouldn't talk about it openly. You can bond over shared porn headcanons with other yumes I guess but that's about it.
I guess the difference is that as a fujo you have your ships and your NOTPs but for yumes literally everything is a NOTP unless it involves (You) personally and revolves around (Your) vagina and it makes it impossible to engage in fandom activities normally.
No.5735
>>5733>women otaku will infightWe are all gladiators in the coliseum that is shipping.
>>5728I blame FF14 getting popular and normalizing OC/NPC shipping. It was like a Trojan horse but the horse was good art of Emet-Selch and the soldiers were Persephone YumeWoL getting her back blown out. I didn't see fuckall for OC content in EN spaces until Shadowbringers specifically.
No.5736
>>5732>>5733I think it's the result of terminally online people. If you are too online all you see is the social media content around you and that content is largely made by fujos so it might feel to them as if 99% of all things existing in the world were fujo when the mass of the content is actually proof of the exact opposite. We only produce so much because we're forced to feed ourselves and have nothing else but us and a few crippled canon stories and creators that coincidentally wrote some fantastic chemistry and characters before turning the story to shit.
No.5737
>>5733I like this thought kek.
>>5734>I mean, the feeling I get as a fujo of getting annoyed at yumesperging about how much husbando loves bobs and vagene because I OTP him hard with another dude is pretty much the same at its coreI kind of agree, and that's why I find the sense of possessiveness somewhat understandable. At the same time, I'm very much someone who CANNOT multiship; I have my pairing and that's it, but when I see someone who ships Y/Z instead of X/Y, I don't really feel upset? I just kind of ignore it and don't feel particular bitterness toward people who don't share my opinion. One of my friends got me into a show featuring her OTP, and I realized that I preferred shipping one half of that pairing with a different guy. Despite that, we manage not to fight about it because, at the end of the day, we're enjoying the same story and both obviously care about the characters in our own way. I know this isn't a realistic expectation for online interactions, but I do wish it could be more like that. There are enough men hating on us both that I think we should collectively resent them instead of each other kek.
>I guess the difference is that as a fujo you have your ships and your NOTPs but for yumes literally everything is a NOTP unless it involves (You) personally and revolves around (Your) vagina and it makes it impossible to engage in fandom activities normally.I wonder if yumes with the same husbando ever get into fights about this…
>>5736>I think it's the result of terminally online people. I think so, too. SMall sample size, but I know a couple of women in real life who read reader insert fics and/or have husbandos. As you can assume, they're very normal and reasonable people. It's probably just because it's easy to feel inundated with fujos and shipping if your only interaction with fandom is online. Fujos are very passionate, and we do talk about this stuff a lot.
No.5742
>>5737>I wonder if yumes with the same husbando ever get into fights about this…Out of curiosity I've looked at a yume twitter once that's based around giving the community questions to answer and it sounded like a bunch of them will just block someone on sight if they yume the same character.
>>5735>I blame FF14 getting popular and normalizing OC/NPC shipping. It was like a Trojan horse but the horse was good art of Emet-Selch and the soldiers were Persephone YumeWoL getting her back blown out. I didn't see fuckall for OC content in EN spaces until Shadowbringers specifically.That's an interesting perspective. I started in around the shadowbringers era and when I made my way through the MSQ and reached that expack the community I liveblogged it to at the time included an Exarch yume and Emet yume who both were gushing to me about their husbandos while I was playing the game like a BL game. I assumed OC/NPC had always been huge, especially cause in the earlier MSQ Haurchefant and Aymeric were obsessed with (You).
No.5753
>>5734>I guess the difference is that as a fujo you have your ships and your NOTPs but for yumes literally everything is a NOTP unless it involves (You) personally and revolves around (Your) vagina and it makes it impossible to engage in fandom activities normallyI don't hate or want to fight with yumes but this is my experience as well. Even beyond the shipping stuff, you have to tread carefully to make sure you don't offend someone with very specific headcanons and attachments to a particular character. They to stick to themselves and block anyone who yumes the same character most of the time. Making content just around self-inserting plus a husbando seems much more limiting when it comes to fanworks. I want to bond with other women the best way I can though. It's best if you have yume friends in a fandom you aren't in at all so you can't ever step on landmines.
No.5754
>>5742>assumed OC/NPC has always been hugeIt's a proportions thing. There were always WoL shippers (and rightfully so tbh) but ShB blew the lid off.
No.5771
>>5538It ruined fandoms and media in general, you get a good piece of media and self inserters will flood it making the entire work about validating their own fantasies. With yumes they self insert as the relatable girl who gets princess treatment, with men it’s the bland, nice-guy protagonist who somehow lands a harem.
Yumes take any female character who isn’t them and turn her into some kind joke, evil rival or irrelevant background extra. Meanwhile, guys either hate on every other male character or don’t bother including them at all.
>>5580I am in a fandom that is just yumes and their simps, so if i ship male x male bzzz delusional, but if i ship side female x male bzzz delusional too and get hate from misogynistic yumes and /a/ shittiest posters with trash tier taste in waifus.
It's cancer and I unironically have more respect for oc creators, because at least they aren't lazy expecting the author to do their job for them.
No.5772
is it more common to be a fujo or a yume? this assuming that being a hime is the rarest out of the three
No.5773
>>5772Yumes are definitely more mainstream globally. There's thousands upon thousands of romance books made for them specifically to self-insert. And it's extended to other mediums as well, like interactive fiction and whatnot.
No.5774
>>5772Being a yume is more common, but fujoshi make more content and actively engage in communities in higher numbers. Basically, yumes are more likely to be casuals. As nerd spaces are increasingly merged with the mainstream, we see yumes finding their way into dedicated fan spaces more often.
No.5777
>>5772Yumes are basically the default expectation for female fans, and a lot of it ties into female socialization. Fujos are the polar opposite.
No.5807
>>5806>drama that they have to deal withThey created 90% of the drama, also much of the fujo hate comes from them
No.6088
>>5811Yumes call fujos pedos and problematic all the time yet here we are, still live and kickin, i guess they can't take the heat like we can
No.6236
This reminds me of the time I was in a big discord for mass effect and basically everybody but five people were yumes. Now guess who made the fanart? Right, us five fujos. I think there was one mediocre yume artist but she posted like one pic every six months that nobody commented on.
The discord was awful. The type of thing where you feel like walking on eggshells all the time. I thought it was just me because I am an insensitive shit who can't lie and is too lazy to adapt to that sugary talk they had, but my fujo friend COULD do that sweet innocent talk on top of being actually empathic and she said the same thing. We eventually left.
I remember how everything could get you into cross-fire. I once casually mentioned that I didn't like Enya (as in, the music, I know zero about celebrities and don't care) and it caused an uproar because Enya is some feminist icon or something so I must me misogynist when I was actually just talking about the damn music (I also dislike the Beatles, Michael Jackson and Britney Spears). I didn't even hijack the chat, I just talked about loving bardcore and someone assumed I was an Enyafan (this isn't even bardcore or medieval music) so I said "nah" and angered the wasps nest.
Anyway it was toxic and they never talked about their ships because everybody ships the husbando with someone else (themselves) so they just browsed tumblr to find posts to get angry about and once in a week they booted one of their own because they got into a fight.
One thing I noticed (this isn't about yume but mass effect tumblr yumes) was that all of them were married NEETs living in the apartment of their husbands. They always hated on men, called them shit and talked about how women don't need them and just two minutes later they mentioned how their husband bought them some overpriced nerd shit of their husbando again and cooked food for them.
It always stroke me as weird as shit so I left. They also never talked about the few good het fics and instead fawned over some AU writer that turned the feMC into a slave who gets bought off by the prince husbando (shudder). In the game it's the other way around. The feMC (PC) is the boss and the guy is her underling and comrade. Btw a bunch of them blocked me for shipping gay stuff lol
No.6297
>>6236They sound annoying but ill be honest
>just two minutes later they mentioned how their husband bought them some overpriced nerd shit of their husbando again and cooked food for them. This is pretty based
No.6320
>>6297It would be based if they didn't brag about it in a discord
No.6325
>>6236>Anyway it was toxic and they never talked about their ships because everybody ships the husbando with someone else (themselves) so they just browsed tumblr to find posts to get angry about and once in a week they booted one of their own because they got into a fight. >One thing I noticed (this isn't about yume but mass effect tumblr yumes) was that all of them were married NEETs living in the apartment of their husbands. They always hated on men, called them shit and talked about how women don't need them and just two minutes later they mentioned how their husband bought them some overpriced nerd shit of their husbando again and cooked food for them. Kek this genuinely sounds like most posters on Lolcow to a T.
No.6332
>>6297I just can't stand dishonesty in general and neither people that act like princesses so I was happy to leave that fandom behind. They have no honor IMO because they do what they pretend to hate.
They are for some reason obsessed about being independent while being simultaneously incapable of going to the grocery store so a man does it for them them and buys their food like a parent does for their toddler. I just believe that their annoying attitude stems from that exact cognitive dissonance and they project their hatred onto others, especially women with a normal lifestyle.
I have no idea where this mindset comes from so I headcanon that these people stem from some fundamentalist shithole towns or got brainwashed by their parents. None of the women I know personally were ever afraid or in need of men and most are pretty independent in general, even the ones that are married. It's like a foreign culture to me. I never met a woman who was afraid of leaving the apartment at night or was too insecure to go to the supermarket and it actually reminds of the males of my own country's altchan which is one of the cringiest places on earth and full of grown ass dudes who are too afraid to face the pizza supplier.
To me it reeks of infantilization of girls and must therefore come from the parents and environment. And they are proud of it which rubs me the wrong way and I don't want to be associated with this.
No.7096
Self-insertion has severely damaged fandom. I don't know what can be done to change the course of it. Everyone asks "What about me?" when looking at characters when you should be looking at the media and the characters for who and what they are. It's ridiculous how this has caused the deluge of tranny fics and art all in the guise of "representation"
No.7946
>>7943This just makes me think of all the "blank slate" characters people ship from video games that I've never gotten. If the character solely exists to repersent the player and has no personality of their own then even if the design is cute I can't get invested.
It's funny that people used to write x OC fics to fill their need to have the characters smooch them, but now they've dropped the facade of even pretending to have another figure their and it's just X Reader.
No.7947
>>7946Ignoring the Manga that's totally its own thing, since we have Masters the Pokemon protagonists technically have personalities now, but it's Masters, so they're still pretty bland. I like the freedom with characterization and MC-kuns are a nice fallback option for me if my favorite guy doesn't have anyone I want to pair him with. But a MC x Husbando ship is rarely going to get me super deeply invested due to that blank aspect. I regularly get attached to minor characters with barely any substance though, so cute designs really can be enough for me, as long as the other half of the ship does have substance. I can't personally wrap my head around MC x MC ships because those are a whole nothingburger, seems like the fans tend more towards selfinserting male shotafags rather than fujos.
I wonder if for me, the default designs of Pokemon MCs are something that helps me see them as their own characters compared to a game that just throws you into a character creation screen.
No.7948
>>7946>This just makes me think of all the "blank slate" characters people ship from video games that I've never gotten. If the character solely exists to repersent the player and has no personality of their own then even if the design is cute I can't get invested. This is how I feel with Atlus games in general specially Persona. Even more so when different flavors of x/MC or MC/x are the most popular ships, with very little outliers being character/character. The Persona MCs have "some" personality but most of it is entirely headcanoned by the people as a whole, when I have to basically make the MC into a whole different character, it might as well just be my OC and I'm personally not like that.
This also was worse during the FE 3H Era too with Byleth being the blandest MC ever alive that it makes Kamui look good.
Also BL for Fates fucking sucked because the male MC design wasn't even that good either No.7949
>>7948>This is how I feel with Atlus games in general specially Persona. Even more so when different flavors of x/MC or MC/x are the most popular ships, with very little outliers being character/character. I'll never not be annoyed Adachi/Souji managed to be the most popular ship for Adachi when Adachi/Doujima is prime tragic dark material. That being said I do think the anime adapation of 3 and 4 really help those protags be characters unlike the games.
>>7947>I wonder if for me, the default designs of Pokemon MCs are something that helps me see them as their own characters compared to a game that just throws you into a character creation screenThis is my theory for why Calem and beyond aren't nearly as popular fandom-wise.
No.7950
>>7949>This is my theory for why Calem and beyond aren't nearly as popular fandom-wise.I think this is part of it but there are other factors, like how shippy their rival relationship is. Red, Ethan and Hilbert were the most popular due to their rival characters. Calem didn't really get anything, then after Gen 6, they started doing much younger kid MCs again, and Gen 7 and 8's default male MCs didn't appeal to me. But Florian really took off in Gen 9 because of his classic cute shota design and the shipbait that was Arven and Kieran.
(I know that Gladion and Bede followed the classic rival formula but I'm not sure how popular they were because I haven't checked those fandoms out yet)
I think the few male MCs with any popularity have always been the outliers to be honest, they tend to get the short end of the design stick and overshadowed by the feMC.
No.7952
>>7951>assuming everyone self-inserts into the female charactersThis has always annoyed the fuck out of me, they only latch onto the cuck insult so hard because they can't divorce themselves from the fiction that they like. I've also seen himejos use it which makes no sense because it's basically an insult towards all shippers.
>not being able to consume any type of entertainment without making retarded ships should be considered a type of disorder or mental illnessYou'd think this tweet was a criticism of people fandomifying The Brothers Karamazov or some shit but it's about LaDS. It's not like being romanced by a 2D anime boy is comparatively any better than yaoi'ing them especially when people yume characters that aren't from that type of media.
No.7953
>>7951>4 of these have kpop group idol avatarsNo seriously, why is it always them EVERY time?
No.7955
>>7951It's not a cuck fetish if I didn't want the guy to be with me in the first place.
No.7956
>>7951>I know which crowd hate female characters the most for stupid reasons like getting in the way of their shipsIronic considering yumes will literally write 1001 bashing fics because the male love interest in a female oriented media has another love interest outside of the main girl character. Case in point, Lila and Chloe (and Kagami to an extent) from Miraculous Ladybug have so many character bashing fics (they call it salt fics) it’s not even funny. I’m sure a lot of them have gotten deleted over the years, but being into any of these girls more than Marinette was like trying to find a needle in a haystack if you wanted a fic that gave them a happy ending over Marinette.
No.7957
>>7946For me personally a nice character design and fun doujin concept can go a long way and I also find it interesting to see how people fill in the blanks with a silent protag. That dragon quest 11 doujin that was shared in /ot/'s gaming thread is a great example. Of course, it's not like that game is very deep to begin with so you don't have to characterise 11-kun as anything but "Virtuous hero who fell in love with one of his male companions."
No.7958
>>7957That was a cute doujin! And yes playing with stuff like video game mechanics is fun, but at the end of the day it's never as interesting as two characters with established personalities. I don't think it's voyeuristic or "cucking" or anything weird like that. People read stories for the plot, I enjoy fanfiction as an extension of canon and to do that I need to already know and love the parties involved.
No.7960
>>7951If anything I’m being nice by shipping guys in otome games since they won’t have to be forever alone if they didn’t win the me the player bowl
No.7967
>>7951This is about LaDS, isn't it? Although I guess it can apply to yumes in general and not just LaDS ones, but I think self inserting has genuinely rotten these people's brains to the point where they think that games are defined by the protagonist's(who they self insert as) gender, rather than literally any other trait. When it comes to LaDS, they believe that the fact that it has a FeMC makes it a game
for women, and that the ones asking for a male MC or shipping the guys are men who want to be represented in the game. Even though it's obvious that anyone who plays LaDS is playing it for the dateable male characters, I've seen people completely unironically say things like
if you want a male MC in LaDS you should instead play a galge, where the dateable options are (usually)… female characters. I thought it was just bait, but I've seen so many similar takes that seem to come from people who fully believe that
games for men are defined by having a male MC and nothing else, and
games for women are defined by having a female MC. Maybe the world has gone crazy.
No.7994
>>7951It doesn't even make sense semantically, being cucked would mean to watch someone you're in a relationship with or have a crush on being fucked by someone else. I'm not in love with the characters I ship, voyeurism would be a more accurate description. Also I swear these people are the ones sperging about fujos on Lolcow's fandom related threads, it's uncanny.
>>7956Kek for real though, they will endlessly chimp out about how much fujos hate women but they themselves see other female characters as direct competition and lose their minds if they have to share their husbando with either another character or another yume.
No.7995
>>7953K-pop is built on preying on lonely and mentally ill people who can imagine the idols as their girlfriends/boyfriends, of course there's an overlap with the self insertion community.
No.7996
>>7967The game has a built in period tracker anon. Pretty sure it's for women. Specifically cis women.
No.8001
>>7994>I'm not in love with the characters I ship, voyeurism would be a more accurate descriptionI think playing with dolls is even more accurate since we are not passively watching characters fuck from a distance but actively writing narratives and controlling ficitional concepts in our head. The lolcow threads confuse me, even if we have a world of eroticized men they still somehow have an issue. Antis act like ryona or dark themes in BL is the same as masturbating to videos of cartel toture. It's like if someone made two Ken dolls kiss and then kill each other, then someone else starts crying and asking how you can be okay with that. Same with the whole cuck debate, is rooting for the main couple in generic romcoms getting cucked?
No.8002
>>8001> is rooting for the main couple in generic romcoms getting cucked?According to their own words, they erase the female lead and project themselves in her place. And then they call other people misogynistic when they just treat female characters like placeholders for their own selves, the real MC of every story ever created kek.
No.8003
>>7996Oh definitely, I'm not arguing that, the yumes can honestly have that game since I don't really like the artstyle much anyway. I just find the general behaviour in the community really ridiculous and extreme at times, it's the best example of how awful (and homophobic) yumes can get.
No.8015
>>8002I've noticed that it's often those who self-insert into the most nagging and unlikeable female characters that then use feminism to guilt-trip everyone into liking them.
For example someone in a fandom I’m in literally asked people to choose between two female characters and claimed that their choice would determine their views on women. That level of unhinged self-insertion is something I just cringe at, like you have to guilt trip people in order to choose someone like you? It's so gross, no wonder these people use fictional characters to get their self esteem from
No.8022
>>8015That's a plague in the Transformer fandom too with Starscream. SS is a great character, but people relating to him are a huge red flag because it's usually women that think being a manipulative, back-stabbing bitch was cool or blame one of their mental illnesses for acting that way and equal Starscream criticism with misogyny because THEY are like him or think they were. It also requires the additional step of headcanoning him as a woman, as trans or at least as someone who is supposed to represent women which is absolutely not the case.
SS is just your classic manipulative, bitchy, evil side-kick. He's supposed to be amusing to watch or hot, not to be literally you.
No.8024
>>8022Local TF fan here who's been plaguing/lurking this board for a few months. And it's so hard not to constantly complain about it. Because it's just so irritating. And worse, it's a fandom constant. Across every media, most of my complaints stem from my favorites, which include Screamer. Linking it to self-inserting makes so much sense, because all fanfiction of him is written like he's got the headspace of a 20 year old emotionally immature college student, not someone who's exclusively happy when hurting and abusing other people.
He's just evil. Outside of Armada, he's one age rating short of being a horror antagonist, and that is specifically why he's one of my favorites. Like Cobra Commander but for some reason, he's regarded as basically a 'she'. a diva, and the target for mech preg/breeding obsession.
No.8025
>>8024Yeah it's a shame because he's a great character with so much potential for cool shit. I love the artists that draw him as unhinged bitch or do something interesting with him (we need a continuity in which he becomes an evil Prime IMO). And yeah it's an issue in every TF fandom no matter which one and regardless of whether it's comics or cartoons.
>Like Cobra Commander but for some reason, he's regarded as basically a 'she'Kek I didn't know that about CC. This feels so random to me I think many fans just call everybody they like a woman or trans. My other fandom is plagued by the same shit and the guy in question is an old conservative dude who is good at fighting and rules over people, he has nothing feminine about him but since he's engaging and fun fans like him and liking someone means they're female and uwu. Sad.
No.8026
>>8025>or do something interesting with him It's a shame TFOne is dead because I think an older SS that has to mentor Megatron for the good of the Decepticons while also having to defer to him as his master would genuinely be interesting.
No.8027
I think self insertion is the biggest reason fandom sucks now, mostly for fujoshis. The het shippers say you're misogynist because you don't self insert on the woman and you're not making content for them. People trooning male characters into women and saying that's better. And of course, the moids who are currently trying to burn down every gacha industry because they need to self insert onto a bland male mc. This means no other males present because it's gay, every waifu is for them, and absolutely no good stories because if any character doesn't kiss their mc's ass, they rage. All media needing to be escapist self insert trash is not only why a lot of canons suck now, but why fandom sucks.
No.8028
>>8026I thought the same. It's a shame that we won't get more of it (mainly for the shitty marketing, even) and that fans will probably memoryhole it because it doesn't match the weak, inexperienced Starscream headcanon.
I was already sad that IDW1 never elaborated on his past as a political figure and senator. It's a cool as shit starting point for an evil dude to be part of an evil government but we only got tidbits.
IDW2 featured a mostly decent government but his role was interesting nonetheless since there he was the corrupt, back-stabbing senator. But most fans didn't read it out of protest, either because they're angry about IDW1's cancellation or IDW1's homo pandering (the boomers and dudebros) so it didn't get the traction it deserved IMO.
Anyway I want SS as a powerful figure.
No.8029
>>8028From the lenses of a self-inserter, SS in any continuity must be flanderized and dependent on a man who wants nothing but to pamper him. And One SS was the opposite to that in every way.
He was confident, less evil and his actions felt nuanced. Like he was aware hiding out in a trash hovel was the only reason he had respect. He had everything, as long as they remained a secret, and D's beatdown went into a direction he couldn't control. The idea of him having to constantly fight for the control he lost in this one scene would have been incredible to see expanded upon- but self-insertion makes him a vehicle for girls who are into being choked/dommed or a nonsense crossover to date their giant jet bf Skyfire. It is insane to me that the episode of G1 that gave him real intelligence, history and a relationship outside of backstabbing someone just became 'tall boyfriend ship' and that was it from thereon.
One of the reasons I can't read Prime fanwork anymore is because that specific SS is the Prime candidate for "omg she's such a diva." Not helped by Frank Welker putting on his best voice ever as megs. Who wouldn't want 15 tonnes of giant jet warlord?
No.8034
>>8022>>8024As someone who was into Transformers as a kid and Starscream was my favourite reading this hurts like a bitch kek, what did they do to him
No.8040
>>8034In official media? Nothing. He only gets more evil with every new version but somehow people just ignore that for geewunner Starscream and Prime exclusively. Doesn't matter what he says, he'll always be Jetfire's boyfriend because Jetfire's a good person, and self inserters don't want to BE bad people. I've noticed this about self inserters with avatars of popular characters who are often forceful to dominant.
They want to be bratty, a mean girl, but with none of the negativity associated with being one so they claim the chatacter's just an abuse victim which excuses their actions.
Picrel just slaughtered about six people and only spared the cat because it attacked someone else that was not him. But "she" cares about her appearance so "she" is obviously just a diva.
Obviously.
No.8042
>>8040Tbf, Skybound's Starscream is a terrible example of the character NOT being an abuse victim because Megatron literally brainwashed him into becoming a murderer, dude was just some scientist until the war came along.
As a Megatron/SS shipper I find Megatron ultimately being backstabbed by the same monster he helped create very compelling, but it's a very clearcut case of a Starcream that got fucked up by Megatron specifically.
No.8043
>>8042I get what you mean, about brainwashing. Starscream, to me, reads as just needing a reason. It's in his character to be cruel, even in Shattered Glass with how he killed Blur. But regardless of how he started, there's always some justification I see made for him, which doesn't always excuse his behavior. It is his character to actively attention seek, covet greed, and push other people into the line of fire.
That specifically is why I like him. And Skybound feels like Screamer with no limits. Before the brainwashing, acting as a civilian, his actions are in line with his portrayal across media. It was an innocent act of trying to be noticed, but that spark was still there.
And, as a SS multishipper, I want to see that in any ship he's in, but it's often some form of recovery. Jetfire/SS is honestly my one TF fandom notp specifically because of the fandom.
No.8047
>>8043Other anon. And yeah Jetfire/SS is one of the ships I categorically ignore since I never see it being done without SS being full ooc. It's the most extreme case of uwufying. Like I don't condemn it or anything, it's just nothing that interest me. I want villains to keep their traits even if they're toned down in a love story.
btw we should discuss this in the TF thread, it's sad how dead it is and I feel like there is a lot to discuss lol
No.8051
I specifically dislike authors self-inserts tbh, which also end up being people’s self-inserts because readers relate to what the author feels. This is very true when it comes to Japanese authors, like one big giveaway is when the main character has a super generic design while everyone else has unique, detailed ones. Of course the author doesn’t want their personal avatar to have a standout design because it’d be harder to relate to right? It's annoying because I’m here to read a story not to watch the author’s projection wacky adventures.
No.8052
>>8051This is my main gripe with manga. Worst of all is that you can tell by the narrative by how the MC is treated by the plot and the side characters compared to everybody else. They're the only ones allowed to be savior and do the cool shit, everybody who is good loves them, everybody who is evil respects them because MC is just so fucking awesome (and I usually dislike them).
I either drop such series or stick to them because I am unlucky enough to love some of the side characters and have to bear with the endless shilling for as long as the series is running because the insecure author cannot share empathy or success with other characters, especially not other characters of the same gender as them.
It's the no. 1 reason for why most media and especially most manga are shit IMO.
No.9246
I know this has been discussed to death, but do some people just not understand that you can enjoy stories without self-inserting? It's such a bizarre mindset, and I don't think it was always this prevalent. I remember a time back when people would make fun of other people's OCs if they were blatant self-inserts. What changed? Have these people never read a book where you're not supposed to sympathize with or identify with the protagonist? Or a story that's not intended to be wish fulfillment? I feel like there has to be some sort of disconnect happening.
No.9247
>>9246I don't get it either. I don't want characters to be like me. I want to see characters that have interesting backstories or motivations or powers. I want to see characters with interesting dynamics and relationships together.
I (like many other female nerdy types) am very shy irl. I don't want to see a bland passive shy protagonist in every story. I am ultimately not that interesting of a person. I can't relate to generic sun-themed genki shounen protagonists, let alone morally gray characters with complex inner struggles and backstories and powers going on a quest in a fantasy world.
>Have these people never read a book where you're not supposed to sympathize with or identify with the protagonist? Or a story that's not intended to be wish fulfillment?I've also wondered if they've ever read books like I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings or Crime and Punishment or Anna Karenina or The Age of Innocence or The Count of Monte Cristo or literally any classical novel? There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying self-inserting, but I can't understand why a self-insert is expected now in some circles or why calling fujoshis cucks over FICTIONAL CHARACTERS is common.
No.9248
>>9246covid and tiktok killed media literacy and pushed egocentrism to the forefront for how people interact with the world at large now
No.9250
>>9246Learning how much "self insertion" has expanded in fandom space over the last ~5 years continues to shock me, especially in media that does not have a build-a-bitch MC (like in XIV, which I posted about here months ago). My cope is that I don't consider the talents of the women who create it to be a "loss" for fujoshi in the way I do other objectively talented artists/writers who create things not to my taste (NOTPs, etc). To their credit they seem to stick to their own corner on Ao3 and I don't use Twitter enough to have to see their shit takes about fujos unless they are posted here specifically (which is fine, I like to get news from the front lines here haha).
Lately I think the blame for the latest wave of it falls on smutty romantasy books taking off as a genre because they straddle the line between classic bodice rippers for normie women AND fanfic girlies, so they bring the genre expectations of the former (You–yes, you!–will be getting dick from the man in this book) into the spaces of the latter (You–yes, you!–will be getting dick from Alhaitham Genshin Impact).
No.9251
>>9247>if they've ever read books….or literally any classical novel? The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read books, they just read other people's fanfics and that's how every fanfic at some point starts looking the same because people don't bother learning their prose from literature
No.9253
>>9251>The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read booksI mean, someone who writes and reads ff as a hobby is very likely to also read as a hobby. Even if it's casual lit or booktok hits. Only 54% of Americans read a single book in 2023. Most of the population is illiterate to some degree. You are well above the average American if you read ff for fun.
https://today.yougov.com/entertainment/articles/48239-54-percent-of-americans-read-a-book-this-year No.9254
>>9253>You are well above the average American if you read ff for funI doubt it. Most fics are light reads comparable to romance slop pushed by booktok, it doesn’t challenge you in any way. No offence but fics are more like self-indulgent junk food.
No.9256
>>9252>John GreenPlease tell me you don't actually read his drivel.
>>9254Agree, though that's largely because there's a lower barrier to entry and so much is written by young people. There's also novel length works that I would call comparable to serious lit. If you are only reading fanfiction you're doing yourself a disservice if only because you're missing out on classics novel ships.
No.9257
>>9254But also consider that the average american is functionally illiterate and won't even see a movie if they have to read subtitles.
No.9258
>>9247>or literally any classical novelKek these people would read Lolita and think they were supposed to project onto Humbert Humbert.
>Crime and PunishmentBased Crime and Punishment nona…>>9251>The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read booksNTA but I don't fully agree with this. I think a decent number of fujos do read books, and I think a lot of women are fujos ABOUT classic literature. Now, I think the population as a whole doesn't read very much, but I don't believe that's unique to fujos.
>every fanfic at some point starts looking the same because people don't bother learning their prose from literatureI agree with this, and I believe it's started to bleed into published books, as well. Some published authors who started off as fanfic writers (Cassandra Clare is the big one I'm thinking of right now) never quite shake that fanfiction-y feeling from their prose.
No.9260
>>9256>Please tell me you don't actually read his drivel.I didn't (even when he was popular I never bothered), the meme just had a lot of books I actually like kek.
No.9261
>>9251I agree that fanfics do kinda blur together if the author doesn't start writing with a goal or outline in mind. If you read enough of them it becomes easy to tell who is doing this and who is doing trope paint-by-numbers for the dopamine hit of easy engagement. All of the objectively solid fanfic I've read shares the basic scaffolding of published literature.
>>9258>fanfiction-y feeling from their prose.I've heard this referred to as "Ao3 house style".
No.9418
Genuine question: where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion? I think the ability to lose oneself in a ship is what defines fujos, but many fujos aren't all about that. What i mean is we can interchangeably see the ship from the seme or uke's perspective. All the while still enjoying the ship for what it is and be an exterior onlooker. Or, god forbid, yumefag and enjoy a character in a ship we find appealing. I just don't get why it has to be a race to the purest fujo enjoyment, because it isn't that delineated for many fujos. I myself can't say for sure what counts as self-insertion and whats counts as moving through a ship, if that makes sense. I'm not thinking of blatant self-inserters like cuntboy TiFs or lost yumes with a superiority complex, just to be clear.
No.9419
>>9418Maybe not the answer you were looking for but this reminds me of something that I thought of before. I think that there can be a fujo-yume overlap if you get into a ship not specifically because of a certain character dynamic but because you have strong feelings for a male character and you want to imagine him being happy with another man instead of yourself because self-shipping just isn't appealing. I had that feeling while playing FFXIV where my player character isn't a self-insert but I made him the qualities I like most in an uke for a male NPC I was obsessing over.
No.9421
>>9418I think self-insertion is basically just about making your own OC, or even modifying an existing character so that their physical aspect or personality reflects you more than it does itself.
I think it can also include that when you are reading, watching, or fantasizing about rom/sexual scenes that you are imagining as if the actions are being done to you as if you were one of the characters.
Personally I realized I don't actually self-insert. What I will do sometimes though is relate or identify with a character. But any sexual component will be enjoyable as a spectator - the actions are done to each other but never imagine that they are being done to me.
To actually answer your question, I don't think many people actually police the level that you can self-insert as as this is all personal.
I think the issues stem from people thinking that a fujo is some catch-all term for anyone that enjoys a ship; whether its OC/reader, gay, hetero, or lesbian, or that we self-insert because [insert your existential complaint here].
Also like the poster above said, self-inserters that don't know they are doing it may try to pass off their works as BL or whatever so it gets harder to wade through content while evading cuntboy drawing and stuff.
No.9422
>>9420>if you aren't actually shipping characters and your sense of enjoyment comes purely from projecting I don't consider you a fujo I consider you a broader fangirlThis is a good summary of my feelings. It's very rare for me to have a favorite character that isn't my favorite BECAUSE they're one half of the OTP for that piece of media.
>>9419XIV is so weird because I don't feel strongly about WoL ships but WoL as a love interest is a narratively compelling argument for so many NPCs that I do not like a lot of NPC/NPC ships because of this.
I feel like a bad fujo because I can't stand Hades/Hythlo, but the idea of Hades having been in love with the WoL the whole time makes ShB so much better. No.9427
>>9422>>9422>XIV is so weird because I don't feel strongly about WoL ships but WoL as a love interest is a narratively compelling argument for so many NPCs that I do not like a lot of NPC/NPC ships because of thisI haven't played FF XVI but I feel this way about a lot of NPC/Protag ships because I like the dynamic of chosen hero falling in love with a randy. Or there being a tragic element of Hero/Party Member.
No.9428
>>9418>where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion? For me, it's when it becomes obvious someone doesn't care for one half of the ship at all. In fan content this becomes clear when you can tell an author is projecting onto one of the characters, often making them ooc in the process. There are also certain genres of posts I see online that annoy me, like when people say
omg I don't know if i want to be the uke or the seme here!!, basically outright inserting themselves into a BL ship.
No.9430
>>9428Do you think it's possible to "only care about half the ship" but also still enjoy it purely as an onlooker? For instance the Warrior of Light ships above where only the NPC matters, Persona ships with MC feel like this to me as well, I assume most people don't care about Minato as a person but they might still like him with Mochizuki for the perceived dynamic.
No.9433
>>9418>where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion?I'm a huge fan of both characters individually when it comes to ships I'm really into, especially the uke. When I see Aoba for example, I think that he's adorable and cute and want to give him a hug like a stuffed animal. But I don't want to imagine dating him. I don't want to imagine actually touching with him or interacting with him or existing in his world. He belongs with another man
Clear. He's not meant for me. There are many characters like that where I think they would be a good boyfriend for someone and get giddy but ship them with another character.
I love using fiction as escapism and my life is far from perfect, but I don't actually want to imagine permanently living with a husbando or leaving my loved ones either.
No.9437
>>9433>that spoilerBeyond based.
No.10307
Selfshipping / yume communities seem like the 2020s version of otherkin or fictionkin communities. I don't remember straight-up selfshipping every being this popular. I instead remember people kinning as one half of a pairing and commenting things like "I would never do this!! Please delete this!!" on notp pairings kek. I also keep seeing tifs self-ship with Aoba or other BLVN protagonists. To each their own I guess but they always make talking to other fans of the games really awkward. Aoba likes dick.
No.10308
>>10307I was just thinking this the other day. I mean, there's always been people who want to fuck hot anime guys, but the amount of cringe I see on people strawpages and shit is so weird. Like, their "oomfs" own a certain guy and you can't follow them if you also self-ship them… girl he isn't real.
No.10309
>>10307I've been seeing an increased rise of BLVN MC yumejos too. I have absolutely no idea why. What makes you look at cockslutmegaslurper 300 and think that he's definitely husband material let alone like, you're gonna save him from the gays with the power of your pussy or something? It happens to the most to the popular ones, like Aoba and Towa of course likely because they probably didn't even play the games (a very common thing in the new n+c fandom, full of underages to boot)
No.10310
>>10309That is absolutely unhinged but at the same time I think selfshipping is weird to begin with cause even if the character is totally straight and doesn't have a canon love interest you have to rewrite canon to insert yourself anyway unless it's a videogame with a custom MC. So I guess for a yume who goes there it's not the biggest leap to just rewrite canon even harder.
No.10311
>>10310I've been a husbandofag for years, and that was the part that never worked out for me, especially because I'm deeply autistic about observing the canon world building. The best I got was that his series had semi-episodic arcs so I could be a one-off character in one of those, but that's not what I want emotionally so other than a little fun activity it wasn't something to get invested in. Self inserting was never truly appealing aside from the brief notion of saying a message of support to him - something better suited to a disembodied voice and POV angles.
The problem is that if you interact with anyone in those spheres, there's this pressure to act the part to prove you're actually a -fag and not a poser, and I'll bet that same pressure is tenfold for teenagers doing yume shit on social media. *chan style fagging is a perpetual witch hunt for drama and call outs, so just imagine what the kids who scream "I just found out my bestie is a proshipper I must disown them now" are like if they perceive their friend not acting devoted enough to her supposed property (because let's be real, that's how they treat it). It's all a big game of working through a checklist of Things You Must Do To Make An Identity.
Nona's right that it's like kinning stuff. Kinning was like the underage weeb equivalent of joining sparkledog/furry fandom, where everyone makes a profile that goes I'm a this and that and also I can do this! It's a profile formula. A way of establishing yourself as a someone for people to easily understand and communicate to on chosen topics. And because everyone else is doing it, you know what's expected and how to fit in so you can all be happy people with your personal thing that belongs to you. It's tiresome to me now, but I remember the excitement from when I was a 13-year-old joining oekaki boards and making an intro post. It's a part of growing up and understanding how to be yourself by performing public personas. Only kids have learnt to just point at anime characters instead of making up a warrior cat or something.
No.10313
>>10307Different terms for the same thing at the end of the day.
>if the character is totally straight and doesn't have a canon love interest you have to rewrite canon to insert yourselfNot always, the way some manga and romance novels do it is by making the love interest relatable or bland, like an insecure high school girl with some character flaws that are never called out because otherwise they also feel called out, so no need to make an oc as you and millions of other yumes can self insert in that character.
Honestly thou I would have no problem with self insert if they didn't have meltdowns over other ships like it's cucking them or other characters being more popular than their self insert.
No.10314
If Lucky dog 1 catches on in the west I could see Giancarlo becoming a yume target too. He's charming, cool and funny and also expresses interest in women before he falls for a man.
No.10342
>>10307I hate people acting like you have you want to see yume shit or listen to them talk about how much the male character loves them. Instead of being in their own spaces like they used they now come up to everyone forcing you to care about their delusions. I'm not into fandoms to hear about strangers ocs, I don't care.
No.10343
>>10307I'm a waifufag myself so I'm sorry if I just come off like a NLOG here. Also sorry for my giant sperg kek I don't have waifufag friends to sperg about it to since I mostly keep it to myself.
Modern yumejoshi communities are a giant pissing contest. They don't care about their waifus, they only care about who has the most obscure quirky waifu and who can consoom the most merch. Think like the Randy Marsh girl, no hate to her but she is the best example and tbh ground zero for the strain of yume I'm talking about.
I've seen them build gigantic shrines to one husbando and then drop him and immediately build another giant shrine dedicated to their new husbando. It's so performative to me, covering their walls in paper printouts and shit, buying up exorbitant amounts of merch just to ditch it.
I check up on yumetwt from time to time and the newest thing I saw from them was "soulbonding." It's the idea that you and your waifu's souls are bonded, even though you exist in different realities. A lot of what they talked about was something like, trying to seek out a 'sign' that they were connected. They treat it like a spiritual belief. It's something I could see myself ascribing to, actually, but that's irrelevant.
It was really weird to see so many people buying into it since it's borderline identical to delusions I was having a few years ago about my old husbando. I really really hope it's just LARP. Obviously my experiences are my own, but I was in a very bad place mentally when I believed that stuff.
No.10370
>>10343IME the modern yume communities, besides being centered around extreme consooming pissing contests and trying to one-up each other with the weirdest husbandos, enable actual mentally ill, unchecked behavior. Throwing tantrums at "doubles" i.e. someone else sharing your husbando is normalized but because you can't attack them directly, you still have these extreme meltdowns on your own account and subtweet about people like a scorned ex. And nobody bats an eye at it.
No.10393
>>10370> besides being centered around extreme consooming pissing contests I think it's ridiculous when "fans" just buy shit and don't actually engage in fandom activities, but oth, I hate when people go "spending money doesn't make you more of a fan, it only makes you rich". Unless you're a fan of something literally disney-tier, someone who supports an IP monetarily is in fact more of a fan.
No.10440
>>10370>>10343modern yume spaces kind of seem like a rehashed version of kinnie/ delusional attatchment shit, with the no doubles screeching being normalized and all.
No.10512
>>10343>>10370I really blame the rise of gacha slop like Hoyoverse and LADS. Yumes were always around, and I know they always had beef with fujos, but they got much worse with the rise of gacha games. LADS actually banning BL fanwork and games like Hoyoslop pandering more to schizos who need every character to love them, as well as profiting off of beef between fujos and yumes by playing both sides, is why it's much worse now. The second this type of company made gacha mainstream it's been like Chernobyl for weeb fandom.
No.10618
It’s normal to some degree to like a character you see yourself in, at least in some ways. That happens to everyone. What’s not normal is when it turns into this weird parasocial obsession some people (a lot of yume types but also men sometimes too) have with the characters they identify with. It’s like a morbid attachment, yumes for example build a shrine for this character and freak out if anyone dislikes them. Sometimes they take it as a personal insult or an attack on all women even.
They spend all their time on socials orbiting that one character and the ship (the romance is always their top priority for some reason), to the point where they don’t even look like they are having fun anymore. They’re just constantly looking for either confirmation or threats to their bias. It ends up being stressful instead of fun, and imo that’s why fandoms are almost never dramafree.
This way of desperately seeking identification and belonging in characters just makes fandom spaces feel heavy.
No.10622
>>10618>yumes for example build a shrine for this character and freak out if anyone dislikes them>They spend all their time on socials orbiting that one character and the ship (the romance is always their top priority for some reason), to the point where they don’t even look like they are having fun anymoreTo be fair this also happens with fujos, with most of the time the fujo type that kinda sorta lowkey self-inserts into the uke (and favoritizes the uke more than anything)
No.10646
>>10622I guess but usually the more self inserting fujos end up being tifs or just liking things like cuntboy, which speaks for itself.
No.10650
>>10622I read statements like these and I feel like I don't know what people mean by self inserting or whether I am in denial about doing it.
More often than not the boy I like best is the uke and I want whatever I am reading to be all about his experience of getting physically obliterated in every way possible. When does this become self inserting? I don't imagine myself as the uke even when I like him to be the center of attention. I'm never told it's self inserting when the top is my newest fixation.
>>10646If the above wasn't enough public humiliation, I like cuntboy too but only in porn. I've never thought of it as self inserting because it doesn't make me feel any differently than other m/m.
No.10651
>>10650The key thing is probably whether or not the author also starts projecting their mental health issues, body type, gender identity or personality onto the uke, starts drawing them as an OC who looks suspiciously like them, etc.
No.10654
>>10650>I'm never told it's self inserting when the top is my newest fixation.interestingly, i most often see people saying this instead ("if you prefer the top character, then you automatically self-insert into the uke and want the top to fuck you.") all in all, it's retarded, and you'd know if you were self-inserting because you'd be imagining these characters fucking you personally.
No.10660
>>10654I don't think self-insertion is limited to purely light yumejoisms like imagining the characters fucking you, but using the characters as a replacement of (something) about yourself. This happens the most in western spaces though, where basically
>>10651 exists in which the character starts to morph into "literally me".
In jp fandoms though there's definitely self-insertion. Whether it's the self-insert as
>I'm the big dicked seme and I fuck everyone>I'm the mob ojisan and fuck everything>I want to be treated like (uke-kun) by (top-kun)or those types of fujos that draw entirely BL genderbends, there's definitely something going on.
No.10699
>>10651I notice for Western fandom the uke is always the self insert which is why most wars about how their favorite should bottom are really about how they should be the one who gets treasured. The uke has no flaws, and the seme has all the flaws. The seme is treated badly in all the fics for not worshiping the uke enough. There are other self insertion aspects, like the uke always has anxiety because it's considered the "uwu" disorder or the uke is always the trans one but the seme isn't because the seme needs to have a dick. But the most common constant is that the uke is this character who never does anything wrong and is always the victim and the seme exists to grovel before them or to provide everything while having no needs of their own. As a fantasy it does make me think it's appealing for so many fandom geeks because they still like to think they're the victim always and any romantic partner they have isn't worthy of them and must dedicate themselves to them and be their provider.
No.10701
>>10699It makes sense when you think about how many people in fandom have that personality type where you need constant reassurance, praise and validation from others, and for those with gender issues, that just gets ramped up x100 because then the one with the trans headcanon represents their own desire to be 'validated' as a man or nb or whatever, and no amount of asspatting is enough.
No.10715
>>10699>>10701I think most fujos with a strong preference for one of the characters over the other will want their fav to bottom (or in cases where one is kinda ugly most wouldn’t want to see him bottom) but TIFs are different because they self-insert as the character they’re attracted to. this self obsession really shows itself in their extremely one-sided portrayal of romance.
No.10734
I've noticed yumes (not all of them) are more often randomly rude or defensive or act threatened around fujos rather than the other way around. Why? It happens even outside of the same fandom so their husbando isn't in danger
No.10735
>>10734I suspect it's as simple as: gay is gross, fujo like gay, fujo gross, fujo might infect my husbando with gross.
inb4 any debate about whether or not yaoi guys represent real gay men. The important part is that yumes think they doIts also likely that they've seen bl art/fic of their husbando before, so even an unrelated fujo gets attacked for being tangentially associated.
No.10736
>>10735This is a dead ass forum that desperately needs engagement- there is no reason for you to sage like you're on lc
No.10738
>>10736Gotcha!
Anyways, I was goofing on Pinterest of all places and stumbled across this, which I think explains a lot, if the kiddos are taking this as good advice.
No.10740
>>10738Interesting. To each their own, but I never think about myself in characters I really like. Even when I write fic as a catharsis, I never think that a character is me. I'm too shy to even think about the characters interacting with me lol
No.10741
>>10740Exactly me too.
Which is an alien idea to them, they think, yaoi has no female characters? so who I can relate to now?????this is misogyny!!
It's so tiresome lol
No.10743
>>10738My (female) OCs tend to be more 'I wish I could wear this' than 'I wish that were me'. They're my dressup Barbie dolls.
No.10745
>>10738I really can't understand the mentality of people who view all their OCs in direct relation to themselves. Maybe it's just me, but I like writing BECAUSE I can make characters that have nothing to do with me.
Obviously you'll always have some piece of yourself in one since you created them and it is ultimately your voice, but like …. it gives me narcissistic vibes.
No.11938
>>11937Lmao this is so fucking pathetic. Self-inserters are a blight to fandom
No.11939
>>11937Are yumes okay
I know they’re not. The fact that they even felt the need to ask if fictional characters are straight or not is so strange. Like who gives a fuck? When has character sexuality ever actually stopped anyone from shipping characters? Maybe they’ll be less vocal (especially when it’s a canon gay character being hetshipped) but it’s not gonna stop them.
No.11940
>>11937As if the most popular m/m ships haven't mostly been between two canonically straight men, and that people don't ship the LIs in Otome games, like Mystic Messenger together… Nothing can stop fujos. I'm tempted to create slash just to spite them tbh.
No.11942
>>11941I thought these were all the same character…
No.11943
>>11941>>11942LOL was going to say these are incredibly boring designs honestly looks like generic NPCs. Appreciate the spirit of sticking it to the company though.
No.11945
>>11941Man these guys just look creepy uncanny valley to me, I couldn't get into it even if it was fujo friendly.
No.11947
It'll always make me happy to know that yumes will never win the fandom culture war.
No matter how much they scream and shout about how cringe and disgusting and fetishizers blah blah fujos are, they'll always be a minority, worth less than even a yurifag.
Your husbando will always have far more fujobait art than any dedicated "vague solo thirst art" for you to self insert in. Even in gacha slop, there will always be a gay pair with far better artists, far more doujins and even officially backed fujobait support than anything that acknowledges the game's femc beyond some scraps.
Fujos can bend media to their will and give absolutely zero fucks whether a character has fucked, is fucking, or will fuck a woman at any point, he'll still be drawn and shown sucking dick.
Yumes have meltdowns for even the possibility of their man having any interaction with another man, they shit on waifufags for this behavior but act just as tribalistic as they do.
They'll look at ao3 stats and shit and piss themselves over how not a single character/reader fic is any more popular than a fujo fic.
So even if they try to worm their way into thinking that they have power and money and control like the schizoest of cat killing waifufags, they'll always be inferior to fujos in every way.
No.11948
>>11937I was wondering where to put this reddit thread that compiles gossip drama but I guess this thread works.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1qxxdds/love_and_deepspaces_papergames_community_is_on/> Female employees sowing dissent among players, enjoying the infighting and mocking them for being otome players and boycotting the game (false advertisement of a unit issue etc)>Female employees dissing self-inserters.Funny if true.
No.11949
>>11948LADs (like the other big fandoms) has its own share of drama and controversies every other month, and Papergames has had it coming for a while now. TBH I don't see much impact on the playerbase. Yumes are just too attached to their husbandos to drop the game so they'll just blame it on the fujo boogeyman and call it a day.
No.11951
>>11948Seeing how insane Chinese yumes in particular are, I'd make fun of them too if I was developing an otome game they were obsessed with. They are the people who get so assblastedly upset about fujo art that they harass the customer service to give them reaffirmations of their pixel husband's heterosexuality. I would absolutely laugh at their clownery, you don't even have to be a fujo to do so. Employees at big companies hate their customers all the time.
No.11952
>>11947I don't see yumejoshi/self inserters ever "winning" the "culture war" just because of how self inserting technically works. At least whether you ship straight or gay or lesbian ships the characters are already established, it's far easier for writers to focus on these characters and pairings whether it's by making them canon or baiting the audience.
What are you gonna do with a canon character to appeal to self inserters? All I can think of is what's going on with otome games and shojo manga, or harem shit with an established canon character who's simply meant to be the audience surrogate the same way Watson is in in Sherlock Holmes stories but even then most fans will treat that self insert as a separate character they simply relate to and want to see with their favorite love interest, which is different compared to actual yumejoshi creating their own OC or writing smut fanfics with second person narration, or making one canon character so OOC they can finaly self insert in that character
like Gojo/Utahime shippers. No.11953
>>11952>What are you gonna do with a canon character to appeal to self insertersNTA
As soon as anti-AI discourse wanes companies are going to starting licensing characters off to AI slop to churn out official 3d husbando bots
No.11958
>>10738>>10745Even if we imprint a part of ourselves in characters we make, I can't understand having an OC having to relate to yourself. They're just characters like any male OC. Where's the "God, I wish she would get fucking plowed" option?
No.11961
>>11947I love being a basic bitch fujo whose A/B ship in any given fandom is almost always both #1 and in the fixed position I prefer. They could never eat this good.
No.11965
>>11958Same. I like writing characters with fanciful details, especially backgrounds that shape who they are even if it's cruel. It would be embarrassing to try passing off something dramatic as my personal trauma, but when I see people make self insert OCs they always seem to do this then get upset when other people don't take it seriously or show interest. If the OC is actually you it's a soft spot, it's sensitive, you're going to get yourself hurt. Literally you OCs make it so if someone is disinterested in them they're disinterested in
literally you. Why would you do that to yourself?
Just make up a dude. Play with him, do whatever you want to him, and let your imagination lead you into places you personally wouldn't go. Pick things you like and watch it go brrrr.
No.11966
I guess it's just a fundamental difference in how people view fiction itself. Maybe because I have a lot of brothers and male cousins who only wanted to watch "boys cartoons" growing up I got used to the idea of not seeing myself in stories really early on, so even when I watched more female oriented stuff with school friends the way of thinking was already set.
No.11971
>>11965>Play with him, do whatever you want to him, and let your imagination lead you into places you personally wouldn't goMy public sex kink wouldn't work any other way.
No.11977
>>11966Yeah, I've never had the 'oh, she's a girl, like me!' moment in any fiction, because idk, it's fiction. It's not real, so why should I care that these nonreal people do or do not look like me? They're there to tell a story, which I am not part of.
No.11978
>>11977Yeah I don't get it either. I get annoyed when I see boring / useless female characters or tropes like Ugly Guy, Hot Wife. I do not automatically relate to character just because they are also women and have the same background as me though. I especially don't want to see myself or a self-insert on screen. That's really boring.
No.11982
>>11971Same here. I only have one OC and he's my MMO character who I designed with every Uke trait I enjoy, who exists to be dominated by men both in public and private.
No.11990
>>11982Yeah, my only OC is my guilty pleasure collection of traits and tropes I like. I like using canon characters in shipping, but sometimes there just isn't one that has a dynamic that I'm interested in, or, more bluntly, doesn't have the specific fetish that I want the relationship to have kek.
No.12000
>>11952For me, a pretty reliable way to tell if a character is a self insert is when almost all her fanart is shipping art, and there’s very little fanart and also merch, of her on her own.
No.12009
>>12007I love how they're snitching to the company like pissy schoolkids kek
>I also can't stand the waah straight women have nothing pity party they pullYou can tell when LADS is someone's first otome game when they complain joseimuke het games are soooo rare compared to BL games because lol.
No.12012
>>12007>>12009It's infuriating trying to have a discussion with them about this because they live in an alternative reality where heterosexual women are the most oppressed kind of women and that the media is controlled by some kind of an alphabet mafia fujo cartel kidnapping and turning their husbandos gay so they have to go to autistic lengths of reality bending to stop them. Otomeshit is a gigantic industry, otome fans get games and anime and manga all the time, most hetero media revolves around self inserting but in their gluttonous state they grow blind to the abundance. They complain that "fujos get all the games" but can't name a single one besides Nu:Carnival nor can they name a mainstream anime past Yuri on Ice that actually has fujopandering despite apparently gays being forced down their throat everywhere. Fujos dominate the doujinshi industry for a reason - they don't have other avenues to express themselves, nobody is interested in catering to them except throwing them crumbs to milk their labor for free viral marketing material. Yet yumes still whine about being oppressed and neglected because they're so disgusted by the thought of their shadow daddy being emasculated by "faggotry" and can't fucking block a tag or just scroll past so they do absurd shit like these LADS nutjobs tattling to the game developer's community managers to get rid of them. And then sincerely wonder why they're being called homophobic. It's the same shit as with those pixel feminist hoyoslop himes who complain about fujos not writing enough yuri fanfics for them, they're not so much annoyed at fujoshit being "popular" but more at that it exists at all.
No.12016
>>12012>They complain that "fujos get all the games"Been lurking /jsmk/ and the latest conspiracy is that nobody makes BL games because it's an unpopular genre and fujos are now infiltrating otome media and pushing the fujo agenda.
>waahhhhh why can't fujos exclude my men from anal sex fantasies stop cucking meeeeeeee>imagine BL characters having sex with women how would you like that>why do fujos want to infiltrate my extremely successful superviral audiodrama franchise No.12017
>>12016Which is nonsensical because fujos generally aren't interested in otome media and the ones who are are often general joseimuke enthusiasts first and fujos second, and have always been. The one MMF threesome audio or whatever is made for their niche that they fully don't commit to, not for those that would actually be called fujoshi i.e. female fans who are enthusiastic about M/M relationships and focus their attention on them. Fujos have their own microcosm of creativity and don't need charity from otome producers, so the yumeschizos who think fujos are tarnishing their precious selfgooning sessions are barking up the wrong tree as usual.
No.12018
>>12016Charitably they could be referring to the unfortunate number of people who keep doing stupid shit like asking for/wanting a male MC in LADS or other otome games. I do wish I could shake those people and tell them to STFU, but the impression I get is that people who do this aren't familiar that otome and BL are different genres. There's so many western VNs with gender / customization options now that some idiots now think otome is a blanket term for all romance games, female protag or no. So I guess people who think this then see a sole female protagonist game and ask why there can't also be a male (or insert your special gender here) option.
No.12019
>>12018>but the impression I get is that people who do this aren't familiar that otome and BL are different genres. I agree cause I've seen instances of that personally. I watched a review of LADS some time ago and the dude who played the game brought up the lack of male MC as a downside and I've also seen someone on discord who used the term "mlm otome."
No.12023
>>12018>>12019Majority of these people aren't actual fujos tho they're just TIF yumes who want to self insert onto a man
No.12024
>>12023That's always my default assumption but there are definitely some baby fujos who are new/normie and make the rest of us look bad. (Heavily overlapping with the aiden group, of course)
Sadly, the more canon gay ships/characters we get in media, the more that normie fans turn into entitled Karens thinking they can get what they want by yelling at the manager. Which, het fans have always been like due to the base assumption their ship can/will happen.
No.12026
This is why I hate yumes. A lot of the anti fujo hate comes from them and it's no surprise they're more accepted in fandom than fujos are. I hate how they take over gacha spaces. They act like there's so many popular BL games with plot while the most fujo friendly game is Hoyo shit, which is pathetic. And even there you have schizo yumes fighting with fujos because the company Shitverse loves inciting drama.
No.12027
>>12016>>12012lmao their "WE'RE STARVING. WE'VE HAD NOTHING AND LADS IS ALL WE HAVE. DON'T YOU GET IT?" rhetoric is so pathetic lmaooooooooooo I can't take these retards seriously. They're here acting like they're being thrown into gas chambers and the fujos are the gestapo.
No.12075
I don't get what's so appealing about self-shipping, once I yumeship when I was middle schooler, I was pretty cringe when remembering hating a female character for 'stealing' my husbando *shudder* but now I'm in early 30s, I grew out of it and found selfshipping unnecessary.
I found yumeshipping at adulthood childish, if weird, they seemingly not moving on from their delusional childhood fantasy with fictional husbandos, I assumed they coped with yumeshipping due to shitty experience with men. Most yumes I know are both misandrists and secretly misogynists despite their claim to love & defend female characters.
Smh yumes need to seek therapy, finding a good man or stay single & independent.
No.12076
>>12075My experience with them has been literal mental retardation.
Autistic, but also schizos with like 9 undiagnosed disorders and people who enable their behavior. They, imo, honestly just need to stop being ashamed of themselves and seeking validation from a character that can't tell them to put down the breakfast burritos and work on themselves. Sexual trauma seems to be a mainstay and they hate the idea that they're actually just straight women with nothing queer or tumblr approved going on outside of that.
I have never-ever seen a yume who's got her life together or doesn't regularly just get off without a train's worth of baggage.
I considered self-shipping as a joke. But the idea that no character I like would ever be my type stopped that dead before it could begin
No.12077
>>12075>finding a good manAn oxymoron
No.12078
>>12077nta, they don't need a good man. They need a friend and a partner who can provide an experience that unravels the gordian knot they have that tangles fiction and reality. There's something off and surreal about watching these girls go on social media and cry about people calling them delusional and doomscrolling through positive affirmation posting about how their relationship is totally real and nothing can take it away from them.
No.12081
>>12078Maybe they had shitty RL that they go self-shipping as coping mechanism, though I don't blame them if they get treated badly by shitty incels or if they're married women, lived with shitty freeloading husband.
If only yumes ain't so hateful to fujos.
No.12082
>>12075I understand self-inserting as far as being able to imagine yourself in a romantic or sexual situation, but this is an entirely other level. Playing pretend shouldn't turn into delusion.
No.12092
>>12091Yeah the sudden rise of sakura dickriding is very strange to me. I always assumed it was related to the rise of self-insertion.
No.12100
>>12091I know what you mean and as someone who likes Sakura but doesn't ship SasuSaku (but does ship her with other people) it's very weird. You have people like the creator of Killing Stalking who think that Sakura was wronged by Sasuke and draw her choking him out as if he wasn't the one being pursued by a woman he didn't want. And you have other people who pretend like nothings wrong with their relationship and that Sasuke was madly in love with her the whole time because Sasuke had two lines of blush in like chapter 20 5 panels after Sakura made a romantic comment. Orihime and Ichigo shippers seem the same to me, especially when Bleach is a rare case of a close m/f friendship that never has either side of it have romantic feelings for each other, so Orihime's whole character revolving around her feelings for Ichigo when other female characters are fine AND Ichigo not really having special feelings for her for 99% of the manga is a weird combo that makes her fans seem extra strange. They always draw Ichigo so lovey-dovey when it's always been Orihime who's been like that and Ichigo's been more stoic lmao. Though maybe this is hypocritical coming from a fujo but I don't get the point in not liking characters the way they are in canon and rewriting everything. If you don't like that the female characters are wayyyy more in love with their partner, and revolve their lives around them while the males live their action packed lives then you don't really like their relationship imo.
No.12103
>>12100>Though maybe this is hypocritical coming from a fujo but I don't get the point in not liking characters the way they are in canon and rewriting everything. If you don't like that the female characters are wayyyy more in love with their partner, and revolve their lives around them while the males live their action packed lives then you don't really like their relationship imo.The way I see it, when a fujo does this she knows it's just a fun what-if to have the guys in a relationship but when a yume does this out of wanting to self-insert it becomes weird when she insist it's actually canon even though it blatantly isn't.
No.12109
>>12100The author of Killing Stalking drew that? That's hilarious. Who would've thought she was a Sakura fan? Conspiracy theory: maybe the MC of that is a reworked, twinkified Sasuke and the ML is a genderbent Sakura… Anyways, I think in general Naruto's female characters are all under-utilized and defanged, so it really is up to fanfic writers to create complexity for them, including Sakura. One I feel bad for is Anko who I think really could have been a great character if she was written by a woman. I do agree that Sakura *and Hinata* really do tend be used as a self-inserts as well.
No.12112
>>12091This is the case for every single love interest/heroine in anime, and even videogames (for example every single Kairi yume is an hardcore Sokai fan).
Yumes just need the female lead to function as a proxy through whom they can vicariously experience a romantic relationship with the male protagonist.
Like Kairi for example she needs to have an accessible personality, like have traits that are universally agreed upon to be good, have a pretty design not but not uniquely pretty etc.
and if anything have some flaws that normal people have too like anger or temperament etc.
That's why you never see yumes for straight up evil female characters that want to kill people etc
No.12139
>>12081>Maybe they had shitty RLit's irrelevant, also the majority of them claims to hate all men yet will defend trannies over other women without even questioning it, men literally wearing our gender as a costume.
Misandrist until its a guy in a drag lol
No.12141
>>12139This is why that "Would you rather be stuck with a man or a bear in the woods" trend pissed me off.
No.12185
Hey nonnas, I tried to yumeship with fav male charas but….I end up feeling disgusted at myself for self-shipping with so-called husbando because I'm too ugly to be yumejoshi & didn't feel like deserve to be in romantic self shipping, prefer seeing two guys eating or hatefuck each other out….I had that kind of issue, kinda like 'woe is me and too ugly to yumeship' issue.
Because I was brainrot by yaoi first, I lost few friends who were yumes, I'm jealous of my ex-friends who were yumes easily shipped themselves with their husbando but I can't…
No.12186
>>12185Create an OC that has some of your traits but who is like an ideal version of you and ship with your husbando. If you can't bring yourself to ship a girl OC with your husbando then create a male OC.
It's escapism, you don't have to ship your real self with him, you are not 2d like him in the first place.
No.12187
>>12185Can't relate because that's how it should feel, insert the "she's a cartoon not your waifu" pic.
No.12188
>>12185If you're upset about not being able to ship yourself with a 2D husbando you need a partner and therapy. You can't have a relationship with a fictional character.
No.12191
>>12188Having real partner who actually giving a shit would be way better than living in delusional fantasy with fake husbando, surprising some delulu yumes didn't get thrown into mental asylum.
Tumblr and Twitter yumes really drive me nuts.
No.12192
>>12139Had I write male oc with tits, I'd just refer him as femboy, people would see him as a troon but in my eyes, he's always male who happened to get boobjob but keeping the balls, pp & man voice. Basically making fucked up shit oc just to see woke trannies seething. At least being called transphobic is lesser of evil instead of making him preachy troon Gary stu pandering to sjw woke fuckwads.
And yeah….trannies invading every social media, not even YouTube is safe from troon shit.
No.12193
>>12188>>12191Having a real partner puts you at risk for abuse, rape, stds etc. Specially if you're someone like that anon with low self-esteemed which attracts the worst men. I can understand any woman who wants to choose a fictional character instead. Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal' or grounded in reality either. Many BL writers made BL and otome/shoujo and there are many fans of both. This yume vs. fujo shit isn't a real issue.
No.12194
>>12193Jeez, no wonder I stay single after what you said about getting worst men for a partner nonna.
Though I ain't much of yume myself, I indulged in yaoi for escapism, surprisingly there are more fujos who actually can't stand RL men, most men in RL are hypocritical, misogynistic and homophobic assholes who treated fujos like utter shit.
No.12195
>>12185there’s really no other way to improve low self esteem besides reminding yourself how retarded that line of thinking is. it’s illogical. it doesn’t make sense. it’s a constant process and it’s not easy but there’s no other way. you have to change your entire way of thinking and values. your low self esteem won’t go away just because you get a husbando. (giving you the benefit of the doubt that this post is genuine)
No.12196
>>12195>>12185The real solution is to acquire a canonically pathetic husbando with no standards, like Zenitsu or Toritsuka.
No.12198
>>12195I see low self esteem as an extreme effect of main character syndrome. They think that their value to the world should be greater, but it's insignificant, not realizing that the world is bigger than their physical looks or lack of a talent.
There will always be some woman prettier because it's subjective. There will always be someone more talented because you simply were not born like fucking Willy Wonka. The Johnny Depp version.
You MCS'ed so hard you went full circle with it. (General you.)
I think once people get over this and accept that human society is greater than a space of 1000 people, then they can move on from screaming on twitter about how their f/o is a legitimate relationship.
But I would love to see these people put married on a government document and then look some guy in the eyes and say Itachi Uchiha.
No.12199
>>12198Most people care about their immediate environment and how it judges them. I don't think people with low self-esteem compare themselves to the entire world, why would they when it doesn't matter? Honestly I don't understand your point and how it's related to yumeshipping.
No.12202
>>12196that would just be ignoring the problem. she’d still have horrificly low self worth. It’s the same mindset as trying to get a boyfriend to fix your problems but all that does in reality is make it worse. I lowkey think it’s a troll post though
No.12209
>>12193>I can understand any woman who wants to choose a fictional character insteadit's like saying I can't travel in real life so might as well enjoy seeing photos of it. Also especially when it comes to relationships, no fiction will ever be able to replace a real relationship with another human, ever. Even the best fiction won't give you the emotion of finding love with someone else, this doompilling is boring.
>Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal'a fujo thinking about yaoi everyday would be at most a pervert, but at least she is not making a boyfriend out of some fictional guy replacing what she wants irl.
No.12210
>>12202I mean, being aware that Brad Pitt or Jimin or Sephiroth likely wouldn't be into (You) isn't low self esteem. It's just realistic. I only ever get thoughts like 'I would/wish I could date this character' if I get the feeling that I could have a chance with them in RL, which is not often but there are a few cute nerdy virgin types in mundane enough settings. There are plenty of characters who are hot but would be terrible as an actual partner. Either way, I'm only interested in shipping canon characters. I haven't shipped a selfinsert OC since I discovered yaoi as a kid.
No.12211
>>12199nta but i feel like she was referring to the people with low self esteem that compare themselves to anime or movie characters, which are in a immediate environment in a way.
No.12212
I'm seeing more and more tweets by Japanese people insulting western yumejoshi on my tl. I'll talk about it more once I'm back home and will post screenshots but so far they're mostly insulting a russian yumejoshi who's into JJK becauseshe reuses official logos of the title, Gege Akutami's name and Mappa's brand name with the copyright logo, etc. to make her OC donut steel art next to official art of the JJK characters look more believable. It's funny, Japanese fans are saying they're pissed these yumejoshi use official tags and don't hide their stuff with private accounts and that western fanfics are crazy.
No.12213
>>12211Yes. That's my point. Their world view is unrealistic and narrow minded. Taking a step back from seeing yourself as the MC of an anime can help a lot with shedding self esteem issues. You don't get immediate, instant perfect boyfriend irl. And while there are other factors that come into play like bullying, and undiagnosed personality disorders, an effort to de-center your world view from a movie star type of perspective helps.
Not to mention social media has gotten to a point where the idea that it being an act simply does not register. An influencer I followed for a year kept posting her trips to Disney Sea and all the meet ups she has with anime industry leaders on top of her seemingly perfect life with a Final Fantasy character as her legitimate f/o. It took me months to see the cracks in her make up and how repetitive it all was, stop comparing myself, and unfollow.
No.12215
>>12212I saw that on my TL today as well and though I hate yumejos with a burning passion for being ego hungry beasts and that particular yume being that exact type to have her OC everywhere even replacing preexisting characters in the work for her OC, I think the japanese are being way too autistic over the whole copyright nonsense.
If she's going to get sued, then let her get sued.
"This looks too close to the official and uses official logos, people may mistake it for the real work!!"
Anybody with a brain knows that it's fanmade, it's a joke. But again, if she'll get sued for using logos and JJK copyright then let her get sued.
Also, the autistic hatred japanese have over commissions of "commercial works"(fanart commissions) is so stupid too.
No.12217
>>12193>Having a real partner puts you at risk for abuse, rape, stds etcYou could describe any part of normal life as something to avoid because of the dangers involved. There isn't a part of life that doesn't come with risk and it's insane to suggest that fiction is a replacement for experiencing life.
>Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal' or grounded in reality either.Only it is? It doesn't matter if it's every day, multiple times a day or once a year. Engaging in fiction be it romance or sex is perfectly normal. Using it as a mechanism to avoid dealing with life is when it becomes unhealthy.
No.12218
I find that people with low self-esteem tend to gravitate towards hideous/fat characters the most. At least the women who stan/yume/husbando attractive characters have a modicum of self-respect. Those who love disgusting fatties or general ugly and unconventional men secretly hate themselves and have no respect for themselves. It's like, not even in the safest haven in your mind do you see yourself ever holding hands with Leon Kennedy or Sephiroth and that's fucking sad.
No.12219
>>12218I see ironic TIFs or insecure women gravitate towards ugly characters as a form of safe sexuality
No.12220
>>12219All I can say to that is that these women desperately need to love themselves more. The objective attractiveness of your husbando is directly correlated to the person's self-respect.
No.12221
>>12215>Anybody with a brain knows that it's fanmade, it's a joke.Don't ever underestimate JJK fans stupidity. Especially the ones who checked untranslated leaks on tiktok and can't tell you anything about the story. These same people often say JJK is bad or disappointing because of things that literally never happened in the manga or the anime ever, after reading headcanons on social media from random people who checked the pages without reading anything in the speech bubbles.
By the way, Japanese fans complaining about that also have an issue with her making money off commissions with fanart and selling things on etsy. It's really a matter of how Japanese fans have to worry about lawsuits and crazy fines if a publishing company doesn't like them. Days ago I saw a Japanese twitter user complaining that a very old blog of theirs that they never deleted got them in trouble for copyright infrigement because that person posted a song and they were fined the equivalent several thousands of dollars instead of being warned to take down the blog. Companies don't give a fuck in Japan I guess? In practice it doesn't happen with doujinshi and fanart but in practice it could happen and fans who draw their OCs holding Gojo's hand or Yuji and Megumi kissing and selling that stuff in doujinshi could leading to massive fines if Shueisha changed their mind, maybe it's more paranoia than autism in that case.
Remember this is the same country where Nintendo is from, and Nintendo is absolutely crazy when it comes to roms and emulation. Maybe these rabid fans from Japan are worried that a random Russian artist will indirectly ruin things for everyone else? It's kind of like how Disney is crazy with its intellectual properties so they forced a father to not put a picture of Spiderman on his very young son's grave or coffin. And Japanese nerds don't get that their rules aren't nearly as strict outside of Japan because it's very unlikely anyone outside of Asia is going to get sued over fanart. Companies are barely starting to go after illegal manga websites now, they're late as fuck.
No.12222
>>12221this is so mentally ill and paranoid, also the russian fan's OC looks very nice imo
No.12223
>>12222I was a bit curious and in the tweet's reply some people said the artist wrote a fanfic where Gojo brutally rapes her OC like… no wonder many people dislike her. Damn.
No.12224
>>12223to each their own lol
No.12225
>>12218Was in husbando circles for two decades. In my experience the ones who go for unconventional characters, especially villains or western cartoon characters, are extremely loud and proud Im soooo quirkyyY!!! types. It's not unusual to see them being in charge of a community or chat space, and acting like a BNF. I would describe them as obnoxiously overconfident. You have to keep in mind that there's a big incentive to be The One to make a name for yourself in those spaces. That means finding characters nobody else is going to compete over, that stand out to others as unusual. They also often get the benefit of sloppy, inconsistent, or lacking characterization in the source material, so they can write whatever scenarios and personality they like onto the character without anyone questioning it. They get to be the recognized authority on something and if you dispute literally anything they say you're disrespecting their pure love, of course they would know what toothpaste he likes eating. It's an ego trip for little internet Karens who were kicked out of college clubs and banned from sports for throwing tantrums when they couldn't get their way.
No.12227
>>12225Interesting! I would love a high-effort analysis chart on yumes by husbandos along with fujos by pairing / ship / source material. I've seen a lot of TIFs with unconventionally unattractive cartoon husbandos confidently sperg out over them in a way they probably wouldn't if the husbando was attractive or popular. It would suck to be a yume with a popular husbando.
No.12228
I've always been kind of an on-and-off "yume", in the sense that I enjoy otome games and occasionally imagining cute and spicy scenarios with my favorite male characters, mostly focusing on him and imagining "myself" as a blank faceless self-insert. When I first discovered yume communities, I thought they'd be full of women who do it casually for fun and just enjoy squeeing about their fav characters, but what I found instead were some of the most mentally ill individuals I've ever seen. That fugly lads gacha having some of the worst offenders. I don't understand how they take that shit so seriously, I get having preferences and landmines but I cannot for the life of me understand how they get so pissy about non-canon fanart of their husbandos being gay to the point they act like it's an active threat.
A while ago, I was browsing DLsite and found out it has an "articles" subsite where users can basically blog about whatever. One of the most popular posts I saw was a list of otome/TL circles that made statements clarifying that they specifically only create works where the male characters are exclusively devoted to the heroine, with multiple of them having to specify that they'd never ever ever add any sexual or romantic interactions between two men, I think one even went as far as to say that their MMF 3P works would have 0 interaction of any kind between the two guys. I guess to their credit, the person who made that post said that it's just personal preference and everyone can like what they like, but it's such a wild mentality. Most if not all of those circles produce yandere do-S maledom slop too. That's a recurring theme I noticed with particularly unhinged yumes, they like imagining their husbandos being psychotically and violently obsessed with their self-inserts.
No.12229
>>12228I'm
>>12225 and that's crazy to me too. I'd never really sought out and interacted with otome fandoms, just watched anime adaptations and chatted about them in the places I was already posting in (LJ, 4chan, tumblr, skype, oekaki), but it wasn't like that in the 00s and 10s as far as I saw. The husbandofags were a niche extremist group that adopted similar cultish and sometimes pseudoschizophrenic paranoid behavior to dedicated waifufags, and generally shared the same spaces as them. Over time I saw it branch out to twitter and people who didn't go on image boards, and that's when I started seeing things like public hostility to fandom and big spenders who filled entire rooms for clout. The whole defending your husbando from ships existed but it was something where people privately griped that they didn't like a pornographic image or they saw a shipper saying a ship was canon but here's an essay on why it's open ended ackshually. That originated in venting your personal feelings as someone who knew they cared too deeply for a fictional character and didn't have anywhere else to say why it bothered you. It was often performative too, to show how devoted you were and that you truly didn't accept anyone else taking "your" partner. The whole ownership thing is its own rabbit hole.
I never saw that shit in wider fandom, I always saw slash shippers and het shippers mingle and separate where needed. Everyone was free to joke that the otome protagonist had better chemistry with her female best friend than the boys who happen to be childhood friends/rivals, that sort of thing. Now it's like this super embarrassing secret culture has leaked and regular ass people are throwing themselves at acting it out. For example, on one waifu board, we had a guy who would talk about his waifu verbally and physically abusing him for thinking lewd thoughts about other anime girls or going out to meet with his friends, and this guy had a fucking meltdown over someone uploading NSFW art of his waifu on pixiv every other week. That she would never do that and this was practically a criminal offense against her canon, and his waifu was watching to see how he'd react so he had to be mad about it. And I know if he wasn't mad about it the other waifufags would have eventually gotten on his case saying he was a cuck who liked NTR or something, so he'd be looking for reasons to be angry on his waifu's behalf and spend his days miserable to prove himself.
No.12230
I wrote too much lol.
>>12229 cont.
I hadn't thought about it like this before but the more mainstream fandom spaces have taken on that same whipping yourself into a fury to show how serious you are about liking something. The same attitude I left husbando communities to escape has become a widespread expectation that younger users are copycatting. People want to claim a connection to fiction so deep that they are the ones preserving the true canon and know best.
The DLsite stuff sounds like it could be an offshoot of fixed positions discourse. I accept this and only this with no exceptions. While it has nothing to do with fixed BL shippers, it's the same Japanese attitude, isn't it? Those are their own flavor of intense.
No.12231
>>12228>they specifically only create works where the male characters are exclusively devoted to the heroine…they'd never ever ever add any sexual or romantic interactions between two menI noticed that women, esp jap/kor/cn women, despise muddling yume and fujo content. I don’t think it’s just a yume vs fujo thing; even fujos are sensitive about who gets shipped with who (the snake/frog/snail chart) and top/bottom positions. I have barely ever seen M/F otome content that also contains M/M unless maybe the author is bisexual.
My theory for why and yumes vehemently oppose M/M content in their stuff is that self shipping and fujoshipping are two fundamentally different modes of escapism. Self shipping works from the first person PoV; the appeal lies in imagining your husbando as if he is a sentient interactive enmity. Fujoshipping works from a third person PoV; the appeal lies in being an omniscient god who can play with characters like Barbie dolls. The former cannot interact with the latter since seeing their husbando coupled with any other entity is an existential threat to their fantasy.
If you engage in scroteshit like eroge or hentai notice how moids happily welcome F/F content in their porn. There are two reasons: 1) it’s an extreme extension of the Madonna-whore complex where the male viewer isn’t threatened by his waifu even interacting with another man and 2) more importantly, moids deep down do not believe in lesbianism. They see lesbianism as something women do for male attention or something that can be “cured” by the right man, so seeing F/F isn’t incompatible with their internal fantasy.
>>12227Nayrt but I’ve been formulating a yumeshipper chart based on my personal experience, interactions and observations with selfshipping. I’m trying to classify yumes in a 4 quadrant chart with examples based on two axes: if their husbando is ugly vs conventionally attractive, and their level of intensity/devotedness. Among yumes with unpopular/unattractive husbandos, there are those who are genuinely devoted versus those who treat their husbando as an accessory or extension of their identity. Then among yumes of conventionally attractive husbands (eg the Gojos and the Leon Kennedys) you have normies who are content with hetshipping (like how
>>12091 and
>>12112 describe) versus yumes who straight up treat their husbando as a real partner, complete with elaborate headcanons and OC marriage art and kidfus.
If any other anons want to read my extremely autistic attempt to categorize yumes, I’m glad to share.
No.12232
>>12229>wasn't like that in the 00s and 10s as far as I sawbecause people didn't have a name for it yet, the moment people discover there is a name for what you're into that's the moment you get group worshippers and congregation/cons.
I'd say we didn't know at one point what yaoi or bl meant either, yumeshipping was essentially het or oc shipping with extra steps.
>Self shipping works from the first person PoV; the appeal lies in imagining your husbando as if he is a sentient interactive enmity. Fujoshipping works from a third person PoV; the appeal lies in being an omniscient god who can play with characters like Barbie dolls. Nailed it, or it's like trying to have a character creation protag videogame and a normal protag videogame at the same time.
No.12234
>>12231>unless maybe the author is bisexual.Kinda off topic but why is this true? I know some people say fujos pretend to be bisexual to escape cringe accusations, and why that may be true to some degree, I also have the impression that fujos tend to be bisexual way more often than other shippers or fandom women in general. I don't get it, woulding straight women enjoy BL for the exact same reason bi women do? Even in spaces where straight women aren't homophobic, it still feels like this division is true
No.12235
>>12231Nailed it, men see lesbianism as something hot and that something that doesn't "ruin" the woman like fucking another man would. Since waifus are all objects to the waifuism, I'm sure they love thinking about two girls kissing and then maybe joining in themselves kek. Doesn't work the same with a female self-insert fantasy involving two men.
Please share your yume analysis. I would love to be analyzed in good faith as a fujo too kek.
No.12236
>>12229>For example, on one waifu board, we had a guy who would talk about his waifu verbally and physically abusing him for thinking lewd thoughts about other anime girls or going out to meet with his friends, and this guy had a fucking meltdown over someone uploading NSFW art of his waifu on pixiv every other week. That she would never do that and this was practically a criminal offense against her canon, and his waifu was watching to see how he'd react so he had to be mad about it. And I know if he wasn't mad about it the other waifufags would have eventually gotten on his case saying he was a cuck who liked NTR or something, so he'd be looking for reasons to be angry on his waifu's behalf and spend his days miserable to prove himself.I don't think this kind of male waifufag behavior is new. I've been seeing this kind of behavior on 4chan and /a/ spinoffs for years. If anything it feels like the male deranged behavior towards waifus kind of leaked over towards yumejoshi culture, the same way other 4chan slang took hold in normalfags. Well at least in the west anyway I feel like JP fujos have also kind of always been a little off with their private accounts and miles long DNI lists
No.12237
the recent russian yumejoshi drama is looking interesting
https://x.com/poaaaaa_nganga/status/2028170264392204478 No.12238
>>12237I support the yume here
No.12240
>>12237I am russian and I genuinely don't understand what is op so mad about
No.12241
>>12240nta but I already posted about it here if you're curious
>>12221 and here
>>12212tldr; it's all about copyright sperging and Japanese fans not agreeing with making a profit with fanart because if they do that in Japan and get caught by publishing companies they get fined like crazy. So unspoken fandom rules prohibit that.
These same publishing companies and famous veteran mangaka protect and give jobs to deranged pedophiles and rapists though, but that's another topic. No.12242
>>12234My guess is that legit bisexual women - women who are sexually attracted to other women actually date and sleep with women irl, not fujos who claim to be lesbian or bi to escape fetishizer allegations - are able to derive pleasure from M/F otome content because M/F content for women often tends to objectify the female self insert. In the normie world, the default mode for heterosexual women is to relate to M/F content (unless they have a fujo awakening) so M/M is automatically out of the question. On the other hand, a major part of the appeal of M/M to women is the lack of female presence, which allows them to explore more fantasies free from the consequences of being female (eg being objectified). In theory, het and yaoi shouldn’t be incompatible since they’re both forms of femgaze entertainment. However, in practice their practitioners are often mutually exclusive since they appeal to two different groups for very different reasons.
The tiny overlap between these two demographics - a woman who enjoys M/M who can also enjoy women being objectified - would probably consist of bisexual fujos.
>>12235>Please share your yume analysis. I would love to be analyzed in good faith as a fujo too kekWill get working on it! I’m thinking of four quadrants
The Devoted Autist
>yumes with conventionally unattractive husbandos (esp inhuman characters) who are sincerely attached to them>more often than not on the spectrum which explains the attraction>content to quietly exist and create fan work of their husbando The Ugly Man Lover
>yumes who latch onto unconventional husbandos but lack the pure, sincere devotion of the Devoted Autist>flaunts unpopular or unconventional husbando as an identity; they must be the one and only authority on this character>oftentimes has NLOG or pickme-ish qualities like being a gendie/TIF, being an MRA, or caping for repulsive men>might have low self esteem which is why ugly or unconventional husbandos are deemed non-threatening The Proxy Self-Inserter
>hetshippers who are actually yumes who treat the female protagonist as a stand-in proxy for self inserting so they can be with their favorite popular character (eg SasuSaku shippers who stan Sakura and treat Sasuke like a prize for her) >female protagonist must be respectable, agreeable and generic enough for them to project onto>they also enjoy conventional romance and otome genre works that feature inoffensive female protags (eg Twilight, Dramione fanfic)The Shameless Self-Selfshipper
>yumes who engage in husbandofagging via an OC character or direct self-insertion to be with their favorite character >has elaborate headcanons about their OC, husbando, kidfu, etc. might commission art of their self-insert/OC and autocorrection.cancel>engages in consoomerism to show their devotion to their husbando>often gets offended by other ship art of their husbando since they see it as a threat to their fantasy No.12243
>>12235No, lesbian art is a prime source of drama that makes you a cuck in waifu circles, or worse, "treating her as a fetish vessel." Letting your waifu have relationships with anyone means you don't love her and are faking etc etc. This is the difference between "waifuism" and the casual use of the word "waifu" to mean any anime girl. Waifuists witch hunt and self police over everything, and when they want to bully another waifuist they just have to find porn of his waifu with another woman, man, or horse, and start spamming. Guy has to act offended in front of everyone or he'll be shamed forever.
>>12236Nona, that's what I said. I'm describing a user from an 8chan waifu board in the mid 10s, that's a whole decade ago now. If anyone's wondering he wasn't involved in the beach orgy far as I recall, he was considered mentally ill even on there.
No.12244
>>12242This is an excellent analysis. Thank you for your thoughts!
No.12245
>>12238If she actually did want to be an animator at MAPPA then she's an idiot for not keeping that stuff on a separate account, though, because if you want to work in Japan you have to follow their rules.
No.12246
>>12242Good write up, the quadrants work well. I feel like The Devoted Autist is an endangered species. Last of these I remember is Waluigisgirl and that lady on DeviantArt who drew herself with that ugly guy from Treasure Planet(?).
>>12221>maybe it's more paranoia than autism in that case. That seems so crazy to worry about given what doujin culture is like over there. To me this looks like a case of jealous yumes looking for an excuse to dogpile this one because she is a good artist, but I don't know anything about jp yume social mores.
No.12247
>>12234>>12242Just like bisexual women are overrepresented amongst fujos, bisexual women also tend to enjoy stuff like femdom and pegging way more often than other female otaku. You almost never see yumed wanting to peg their husbandos and when they do it's almost always because they are bisexual.
No.12249
>>12244Glad you enjoyed it!
>>12246Endangered, but never extinct. As long as autistic girls exist, the Devoted Autist will always persist. Besides stalwarts like DisneyFan01 (treasure planet lady), they still exist like the buff SpongeBob lady or the Squidward lady who frequented r/waifuism
>>12247I can get femdom but I have never known any normal straight woman, let alone fujo, who gets off to pegging men. Besides terminally porn brain rotted NLOGs it seems to mainly appeal to bi men and troons.
No.12250
>>12249I have an autistic sexual fantasy about fingering a man's (clean) ass
and have done it before. I like the feeling of power I get from it. I'm bisexual.
No.12255
>>12242Fascinating but also not surprising the devoted autist types are better behaved
t. friends with one who happens to be fujo friendly
No.12257
>>12249I like pegging men, but only in theory. Just like I'm into men but only in theory… Men IRL give me the ick but there's lots of anime boys I'd like to peg. Coincidentally bisexual as well.
No.12264
>>12250>>12257Alas, pegging or fingering a 3DPD man irl VS the fantasy of doing stuff to an anime boy is a world of difference.
>>12255In order of fujo friendliness from most to least I’d say Devoted Autist > Ugly Man Lover >> Proxy Self-Inserter >>>>>>> Shameless Self-Shipper
>Devoted Autist has a strong inner world so they don’t feel threatened by fujos>Ugly Man Lover’s husbando is too obscure/ugly for fujos BUT as a whole they are most likely to show cowish behaviors so watch out>Proxy Self-Inserters regularly butt heads with fujos (see Naruto ship wars) but if they can into M/M (eg multishippers who have a fave fandom bicycle) then some can peacefully coexist >Shameless Self-Shippers and fujos are diametrically opposed. They are fundamentally incompatible.